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barry42001
Jun 7th 2009, 09:56 AM
I posted earlier in another topic, about 4.9 mm bees, and of course there is no debate that bees naturally build cells of varying sizes from 4.8 -5.8mm Apparently there is some science to support the benefits of small cell brood cells. Just today I entered 4.9 mm bee in yahoo search-found many sites more then one were either posting results or conducting tests. The short of it is that apparently the pupation stage of the smaller bee is significantly shorter--by 2 days--egg to adult in 19 days. This according to the research they conducted disrupts the life cycle of the varroa mites apparently they havent mautred enough to have mated or lay their own eggs, and the bees have access to them. Seems that this coupled with the use of drone brood frames useful in really knocking down varroa mite populations. Again according to whats currently published on the net http://www.beesource.com/pov/osterlund/abjaug2001.htm
http://homepages.dordt.edu/ccare/Research/honeybees.htm
I was unable to return to the site stating the shortened life cycle, when I find it again I will post it.
Again as I always say, these are not something written in stone--yet but make sense when corraberated.
Barry

tecumseh
Jul 8th 2009, 04:56 AM
barry writes:
Apparently there is some science to support the benefits of small cell brood cells.

tecumseh:
one link is 8 years old and doesn't work for me. the other link is nice yet has no date, nor data and then tosses in a variable (copper glucomate in the small cell experiement???)...... this site appears to be more educationally orientated than research driven.

if one link fits the (my) profile??? then you are quite likely to find a lot of supposition parading about as fact. opinion parading as scientific theory and no one that has a clue as to why the null hypothesis might be of PRIME IMPORTANCE or what staistical method might reasonable provide some insight into the results. to just cut to the chase here.... unless I had some name attached to this 'research' that could be RESPECTED (which for me really comes down to... does the author have something in their resume which suggest that they have a clue as to how to perform a properly designed science experiement and do they have a grasp on some appropriate statistical method for telling what the results means)**. we have a lot of folks loosely using the word science (here, there and everywhere it seems) for the image it produces.... who in fact have not the foggiest clue as to what or how science works.

the most current research (via my alma mater.. the University of Florida) is that there is no difference in investation rate between normal (whatever that may mean to ya') cell size and small cell size bees. from the get go you need to discriminate between what some folks toss out as wishful thinking and what is knowm (fact). the history of beekeeping suggest that there are plenty of snake oil folks to sell the overly optismistic snake oil.

then barry writes:
The short of it is that apparently the pupation stage of the smaller bee is significantly shorter--by 2 days--egg to adult in 19 days

tecumseh:
one aspect (small step in the process) of science is that from the get go some mechanism is suggested by the researcher as to HOW* something might work (if it indeed does??). from what I know of small cell (which really ain't much) the net results of a two day difference in development time (have to consult the books here but actually via your numbers the time difference would be more like 3 days) is likely at the EXTREME of what might be expected. I seem to recall total developement time difference (the word pupation usually suggest the pupae stage by itself) as about one day. just causally the total sealed time of the pupae/larvae stages is what would would reasonable appear to be most important here.

*emphasis is placed on the word HOW to distinguish this from the question of why... a subtle but none the less important distinction.

**ususally at some level ALL science is subject to some criticism since things are done along the way in the process to make the experiement simplier to do and understand and thereby whatever is revealed don't necessarily fully represent the complexities or the totality of how the world operates. most science folks think thru these shortcoming ahead of the game and prepare reasonable answer to these questions.

Bcrazy
Jul 10th 2009, 09:46 PM
As I understand the cycle of the breeding Varoa is not significantly reduced with 'small cells' as the majority of Varroa will try to find drone cells because the drone takes longer to hatch.
I have known a beekeeper friend who rears his bees on 4.9 cell size and his findings are no different from other hives of normal cell size.

Regards;

BjornBee
Sep 19th 2009, 07:48 PM
My smallcell has no less of a problem with mites than my other hives. Not that I have a problem, just that smallcell shows no big difference. I have been hammered for years stepping on toes about overblown hype regarding smallcell beekeeping, including past claims that forcing bees on UNNATURAL smallcell was "natural", which it is NOT!

I say to those who want to go down that path, go for it! You won't hurt your bees, just don't buy into the hype and false claims. You will be disappointed. Unless you buy into such claims of "leveling" out of mites....which happened to be the last attempts to discredit the research of people like J Berry, who has now shown twice that the many claims of smallcell are all but false.

lil grain of rice
Sep 20th 2009, 10:30 AM
Regarding small cell as a varroa control...do the mites remain on the bee whose cell they grow in, or do they migrate from bee to bee? If they predominantly grow in drone cells and then migrate onto worker bees when the drone emerges, then I can see how small cell would have little impact on the problems the mites cause. However, if the mite population is more restricted to the drones, because the mites that might have emerged on workers are reduced by the shorter capped time, and the mites that are on the drones tend to stay on them, then wouldn't it make sense that there is some benefit? It's not whether you have mites, but what damage they are causing that is of concern. Drones with mites...meh? Also would the shorter capping time at least reduce the number of workers born with deformed wings, if nothing else?

Omie
Oct 9th 2009, 08:17 AM
Is there anyone else on here that has used the small cell wax foundation and has some additional experience to report?

I am planning for my very first hives and am considering small cell foundation but want to read more actual experiences.

sqkcrk
Oct 9th 2009, 09:34 AM
I have been hammered for years stepping on toes about overblown hype regarding smallcell beekeeping, including past claims that forcing bees on UNNATURAL smallcell was "natural", which it is NOT!

All curealls should be met w/ skepticism. That's how smallcell started. People were skeptical about cell size of embosed foundation. Now there are all sorts of wheel reinventions going on.

Omie
Oct 9th 2009, 01:22 PM
All curealls should be met w/ skepticism. That's how smallcell started. People were skeptical about cell size of embosed foundation. Now there are all sorts of wheel reinventions going on.

Well, isn't man-made foundation a 'wheel reinvention' to begin with? ;)
So why not experiment with various types and sizes?... and assuming that man made foundations need to be somewhat similar to the bees own natural cell construction.

Iddee
Oct 9th 2009, 01:40 PM
There cannot be a man made to correspond to natural. The bees vary the sizes greatly throughout the hive, and man made is all one size. Anything from 5.0 to 5.5 mm seems to be the mid range. 5.6 large cell and 4.9 small cell, in my opinion, is outside the mean, so I stay with large cell because it is cheaper.

Omie
Oct 9th 2009, 01:52 PM
So, has the distribution of various sized cells in a natural hive been studied or recorded? i mean, are larger sized cells concentrated in certain areas for certain function? That would be fascinating to know.
Man tends to want to standardize things because of the ease of manufacture, of course. Yet we do already make larger drone-cell frames, right?
For all we know, it might be really productive and good for the bees to put small cell frames in certain areas of the hive and standard size cell frames in other areas? just a thought, wondering if others have experimented.

Iddee
Oct 9th 2009, 02:08 PM
I'll leave the experimenting to others. I use the tried and true and what keeps my wallet fattest.

Omie
Oct 9th 2009, 05:55 PM
I'm just wondering if there is anyone here who is experimenting with or using the small cell foundations?

Iddee
Oct 9th 2009, 06:20 PM
Although he isn't here, Micheal Bush is an avid user. His site is here....

http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm

Omie
Oct 9th 2009, 06:49 PM
Hey thanks, some interesting reading an photos there. :)

Iddee
Oct 9th 2009, 06:50 PM
Yes, He has quite a site there. Lots of answers to lots of questions.

Omie
Oct 9th 2009, 07:01 PM
Lots of answers to lots of questions, and lots of questions to lots of answers....isn't it always the case?
Fascinating reading nonetheless. :)

lil grain of rice
Oct 10th 2009, 07:07 AM
So nobody knows if the mites migrate from bee to bee?

TwT
Oct 10th 2009, 07:28 AM
So nobody knows if the mites migrate from bee to bee?

sure they do, thats how they spread from hive to hive, when mites kill a hive other hives rob it out and mites catch a ride to the new hive.

I have bought and used SC foundation about 4-5 years ago, I bought 200 sheets just to try and see what happens, bee's drew it out pretty good for not being regressed bee's, I never seen any benefits using it, it just cost more per sheet, I haven't bought any since, some say its gods gift but all the studies from colleges and such say its a waist of time. they found no benefit using it, mite counts were a little higher on the small cell hives. but its up to you if you want to use it or not, all I can say is what I seen using it.. good luck

Iddee
Oct 10th 2009, 07:37 AM
Drones, once old enough to fly, have no home. They go from hive to hive and are welcomed and fed. They also carry the mites from hive to hive, and leave a few here and there.

TwT
Oct 10th 2009, 07:42 AM
Drones, once old enough to fly, have no home. They go from hive to hive and are welcomed and fed. They also carry the mites from hive to hive, and leave a few here and there.

exactly, for some reason I can't always remember to post all the way, iddee post above is the main way the spread I think.

tecumseh
Oct 12th 2009, 05:26 AM
twt writes:
I haven't bought any since, some say its gods gift but all the studies from colleges and such say its a waist of time. they found no benefit using it, mite counts were a little higher on the small cell hives.

tecumseh:
just speaking as frankly as possible here there are a lot of exagerated and unsupported claims by folks that push the small cell idea. if you should be so bold as to ask any of them the mechanism(s) by which the small cell idea 'might' work you will most likely instantly become categorized as someone who questions the faith. so yes. I think 'gods gift' is exactly the proper term.

there are any number of other questions which the small cell 'true believers' are incapable or unwilling to answer... which should tell you quite a lot.

having said the above... the one or two folks who I know that have tried the small cell regression idea tell me that the best way to do this is with foundation (referenced above) and a new package of bees.

BjornBee
Oct 12th 2009, 05:43 AM
It's not even sometimes about asking a question. Sometimes, even when you do it yourself (and I've done it all), and give honest evaluations of smallcell, FGMO, TBH, Warre, or anything else, even mentioning the good and the bad, in attempts to actually help others, is seen as attacking one niche group or another.

For those in these niche groups, most advice I have seen is very narrow, slanted, and agenda driven. Something to keep in mind.

Omie
Oct 12th 2009, 10:13 AM
Well, thanks for all your help, guys.
In the end, I am supposed to be given a nice active hive at the end of Oct. and will continue on with its standard sized wax foundations.

So excited!

G3farms
Oct 12th 2009, 08:40 PM
Sounds like a good deal for someone to give you a hive, just be sure they have enough stores to make it through a NY winter.

G3

Omie
Oct 13th 2009, 08:01 AM
Sounds like a good deal for someone to give you a hive, just be sure they have enough stores to make it through a NY winter.
G3

Yes, thank you! I'm very excited.
There are three deeps and then an additional (mostly empty) super on top of that. I will have a BK helping me with the move (thank goodness) and he says we will check things and make sure all is well once we get it over here. (yes we will remove that useless super) Also my daughter is an entomologist and worked in the bee dept at Cornell U and is willing to come here too so we can check the hive over before the real cold weather sets in here in late November. I consider myself pretty darned lucky with all this!
It's still not too late to feed a bit if necessary, but I have a feeling there must be plenty of food in the 3 deeps since no one has taken honey from it since Spring 2008, and the bees seemed to be very actively coming and going from the hive when I observed them last week during a sunny day.
Now we are supposed to move the hive at the end of Oct now. I can hardly wait, I'm so excited! :yahoo:

G3farms
Oct 13th 2009, 05:29 PM
Hope your help has a strong back, if the three deeps are full of honey I dought you and your friend will be able to even lift them. If I am not mistaken deeps weigh in around 90+ pounds each when full.

OOOHHHHHH my aching back!!

Good luck with them and sounds like you have plenty of helpers.

G3

tecumseh
Oct 14th 2009, 04:44 AM
yea... what G3 said. makes my old back groan just thinkin' about it.

with three deeps you are going to need some very strong and very young muscle.

Omie
Oct 14th 2009, 07:03 AM
Well the hive owner did look into the top of the hive the other day (after 18 months!) and said the top super (which we will definitely take off and get out of there) is empty, and that the upper (third) deep seems half empty. The BK seemed to be unfazed by all this and said no problem. I'll just have to trust his confidence I guess. He is young (seems mid 30's) and strong, so that's good. I do know that he has moved a lot of hives in the past. Could be we could take the few frames out of the top deep while moving and put them back when we get it here? Then there would be two deeps, with basically unknown content.
There were plenty of happy looking bees going in and out of the hive when I saw it on a sunny day recently.
We'll see....! One way or another, it should be plenty interesting. :roll:

BjornBee
Oct 14th 2009, 07:42 AM
I think it is odd to have no honey in the top box of a hive not opened for 18 months.

tecumseh
Oct 15th 2009, 05:08 AM
omie writes:
We'll see....! One way or another, it should be plenty interesting.

tecumseh:
yep.

a bit of experience goes quite a long way. at least for me just closely observing how something is done (the devil is in the detail) by someone who has performed a chore a numerious times fills in a lot of blanks and answers a lot of question. be careful... if someone has done a task often enough they can make it appear way too easy.

ps... congradulation on that daughter and good luck to her in her studies at cornell. cornell is a quite exceptional institution as far as I can tell. my wife has had the pleasure of having a couple of their graduates here and they were quite exceptional individuals. pat yourself heartly on the back... (imho) much of a student's success is somewhat to highly dependent on the direction and motivation supplied by family and most especially mom and dad.

Omie
Oct 15th 2009, 10:22 AM
a bit of experience goes quite a long way. at least for me just closely observing how something is done (the devil is in the detail) by someone who has performed a chore a numerious times fills in a lot of blanks and answers a lot of question. be careful... if someone has done a task often enough they can make it appear way too easy.

Understood. It's also interesting to watch all the various YouTube 'instructional' videos on beepeeking tasks. Talk about drastic variation in techniques. Most bk on Youtube are very gentle when handling/installing bees, I found others to be appallingly rough- one guy sprayed his package with so much syrup the bees were just a sopping mess, then he kept 'accidentally' dropping the box onto the ground from 2 feet up to knock them down in the box, saying "Oops!" and "...Oops again!"...he thought it was pretty funny. I wondered how many broken legs and antennae must have been going on it that poor package of stressed out bees. Must have been like being in a train wreck for them. He said he was making the bees 'drunk and fat and happy'. hmmm.... :| In stark contrast, another guy elegantly installed his package of bees in about 30 seconds with the bees practically not even noticing the move, he was that smooth and gentle.

I have been reading both "The Backyard Beekeeper" and "Beekeeping for Dummies" books in addition to talking with the BK'ers I have been in communication with, and reading/;looking at internet information. There is so much info out there to absorb! Not to mention this forum as well. :P
I did work the smoker for one local BK as he opened and inspected his two hives last month- that was wonderful, being right there with the open hize all buzzing their amazing "Ommmmmm" buzz like the whole universe was in perfect vibration. :mrgreen:

fatbeeman
Jan 8th 2011, 01:11 PM
hello
I was reading some old post here and was smiling about the comets. I been on small cell since 1989. funny thing lot of people several yrs ago saying its not working are coming to me for bees. why? well my answer use what makes you feel good and see ya next yr when you need more bees. {lol}

that's what makes beekeeping so interesting.

Don