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BjornBee
Jul 15th 2009, 07:09 AM
So I'm out looking for the first monarch butterfy caterpillers this morning on the milkweed plants, and I hear the distinct roar coming from the bee yard. Yep, a swarm. :o

As a side note....I was told and it was lectured in a HAS bee class last week that queens ONLY mate between 1 pm and 5 pm. Imagine that!

In an class apiary inspection, around 11:00, it was asked what could we conclude if we could not find the queen, especially if she was a virgin. I responded that she may be out mating. And was quickly corrected that queens don't mate at that time of the day. Then later in the classroom lecture, it was clearly stated that queens only mate between 1 and 5.

Guess my bees don't read the books..... :lol: Swarms are not supposed to issue at 8 in the morning either.. :roll:

Iddee
Jul 15th 2009, 07:46 AM
The ONLY truthful fact about bees is: "They will do differently than expected".
They just refuse to read and abide by the rule book.

G3farms
Jul 15th 2009, 07:57 AM
bees will be bees and do as they please!!

it is hard to do anything with them ol' hill billy bees, you need to get some of those edjamacated bees :lol:

G3

tecumseh
Jul 16th 2009, 04:11 AM
I am not certain why a hive swarming and the 'predicated'* mating time for queens might have to do with one another???

as a general rule when you toss out a generally descriptive word like 'swarming' it is good to paint a bit of context to make the picture a bit clearer. that is to say directly... there are different forms of swarms just as there are different purposes/functions for a hive to be rearing queens. the context of what is taking place within the hive is oftentime the only immediately discernable characteristic differentiating one hive 'swarming' (or rearing queens) from another.

just my 2.5 centavos....

predicablity.... in statistical jargon a predicable outcome is generally the mean (central tendency) of a population. around this mean is the spread of outcome where by 98% of all outcomes is capture at + and - three standard diviations from this measure of central tendency. still 2% of whatever population you might be wishing to measure fall outside this range of outcomes.

barry42001
Jul 16th 2009, 06:15 AM
All things being equal, there are a degree of predictability, generally--it's the details, certianly they don't carry a watch to make sure they are following the schedules described in the books, they haven't read, but I find that most books are a product of the particular beekeeper who wrote it, and tries make a broad generalization, a matter of fact that may or may not apply to everybody. ( did I actually write this :shock: ) Seems I am merely restating with more words what was just written above :oops:

BjornBee
Jul 16th 2009, 07:24 AM
Tec,
The connection of swarming and the mating time of queens you ask? OH, let not your heart be troubled, or pained by the nitpicking ventures of the journey of the discussion at hand. Who connected them? Does not a discussion take make forms, twists and angles? I would not waste much time on such matters of uncertanty.

I merely mentioned swarming due to the fact that many books also mention a "timeframe" (my definition differs from that so-called 98% explanation stated above) when swarms occur.

I pointed out the 1 pm to 5 pm that was made (more than once) at HAS as something that was not suggestive of "Perhaps", "usually", "probably" or anything of the matter. It was stated as clear as day and in black and white terms......."Queens mate between 1 pm and 5 pm". This coming from a well versed beekeeper with very strong credentials.

This is not a scientific study that needs to discount probabilities and variations to the finding at hand. It is instructing new beekeepers that queens NEVER mate outside 1 pm and 5 pm....which is absolutely false, and should be gaurded against in making such incorrect statements. The edges of the bell curve usually go for a period beyond incorrect statements such as those noted.

I would of felt much better if a statement such as "Queens normally mate between 1 pm and 5 pm, but that is not set in concrete. They have been known (I know) to mate at other times".

You can rationalize, slice and dice, and pick the comments all day long. Queens do not mate ONLY between 1 pm and 5 pm. That is wrong, and new beekeepers should be told that. If your inspecting your hive at 11 am or 12:55 pm, and can not find that just newly emerged queen in the hive, there IS a possibility she is out mating. DO NOT assume she is missing. DO NOT jump on the phone and order a new one. DO NOT take such statements as FACT, because the bees will prove you wrong. That statement is true..... ;)

tecumseh
Jul 17th 2009, 06:07 AM
bjorn writes:
I would of felt much better if a statement such as "Queens normally mate between 1 pm and 5 pm, but that is not set in concrete. They have been known (I know) to mate at other times".

tecumseh:
I know I would agree with you here entirely (I always try to phrase my language around newbees in exactly this manner). based on limited reading I would guess Iddee would also fall into the same camp... that is the bees are no so inclined to follow our rules???

I was just trying to suggest (via my prior post) that you can make some statement of probablity (time for example) and still individual 'data points' may fall way outside a given range (so ANY prediction is NEVER that accurate).

I would suspect any number of variable might slightly or highly impact such things as when a queen mates or when a swarm issues. beyond this 'statistical' notions I was also trying to suggest that even our rhetorical use of such words such as 'swarming' may not be absolutely equal, but may vary somewhat (ie is a after swarm the same beast as a prime swarm?).

then bjorn writes:
The connection of swarming and the mating time of queens you ask? OH, let not your heart be troubled

tecumseh:
this rhetorical flourish seems a bit demeaning and small to me????

then bjorn writes:
DO NOT assume she is missing. DO NOT jump on the phone and order a new one. DO NOT take such statements as FACT, because the bees will prove you wrong. That statement is true.....

tecumseh:
this statement MAY be true. it may also not be true (if in fact the assumption is correct). the bees may or may not prove someone wrong or it may prove them correct.

BjornBee
Jul 17th 2009, 06:24 AM
No demeaning intended tec. I write as if you were sitting next to me drinking a beer. ;) Don't sweat the small stuff.

The statement MAY be true. True. But I was not the one making concrete statements. I was making statements that may or not be true, in explaining the other guys comments, that were set in stone, and ARE false. It was not whether the facts made the coment true or false for this one example. Yes, it may or may not of been true. But I know saying that the queen could NOT be out of the hive at 11 am on a sunny 75 degree day, and that queens ONLY mate between 1 and 5...is absolutely incorrect. That was the point being made.

Guessing whether she was in the hive or not was not the point.

Stating that she could not be outside the hive at 11 am and that she only leaves between 1 and 5 pm was the point at hand.

tecumseh
Jul 17th 2009, 06:48 AM
bjorn writes:
Don't sweat the small stuff.

tecumseh:
ok... but my beverage of choice is STRONG HOT coffee.

then bjorn writes:
I know saying that the queen could NOT be out of the hive at 11 am on a sunny 75 degree day, and that queens ONLY mate between 1 and 5...is absolutely incorrect. That was the point being made.

tecumseh writes:
if I had made the statement I would have said 'a queen is most likely to mate sometime between 1 and 5 pm' or 'at this location a prime swarm is most likely to issue at or about 10am'.

as I think you are suggesting???? any statement set in stone is almost by definition incorrect information to relay to someone new to beekeeping

there are any number of reason why one may or may not see a new queen. as both you and I know oftentime such 'gueens' are not so easy to see. some fly to mate and never return. cuttin' to the chase the list of likely suspects is long.

Iddee
Jul 17th 2009, 07:17 AM
Is that standard time, or daylight savings??? :?:

barry42001
Jul 17th 2009, 07:56 AM
While bees don't always follw absolute schedules or follow written rules all the time they certianly do often enough to make educated guesses as to what is happening and more times then be right in the assumption. If bees were that unpredictable, we could never rely on they to generate any honey at all above and beyond what they need ofr immediate survival--but they do more then that--it's predictable. Swarms issue more as a result of a impulse, what precisely triggers the impulse, when you can with certianty write that down you will be a millionaire ( assuming your correct ). Queen mating flights and the timeframe--I can make sense of that--warm day, sun at neutral angle more or less, drones are at the gatherinig points--I can see the logic in that statement--but is it always what happens or more or less what happens the majority of the time.Only the bees know for sure--but bees are infact bound but rules and for the most part do infact follow them--not excatly, not precisely but enough to make those dang generalized statements you all hate to see. I think they follow Zulu time Iddee.
Barry

G3farms
Jul 17th 2009, 08:21 AM
You guys need to get with the program..........................

BjornBee
Jul 17th 2009, 02:08 PM
Oh, man I'm biting my lip..... :lol:

pkwilbur
Jul 18th 2009, 06:15 PM
Oh, I so wished to go to HAS!! Next time I suppose. Haven't done HAS yet. Done EAS!

Even I know the difference between Most likely and Concrete. Too bad things got messed up for Newbies. Yes, daylight savings time maybe???? oh well... :roll: That's what paying attention to your own experiences is all about. We all have them, and go.... DUH? ;)

pkwilbur
Jul 18th 2009, 06:33 PM
G3, Loved that pic....! I know you ran out after breakfast!!!! Just couldn't help yourself. I am just chucklin, and chucklin. Good pic, and idea.... Geez crazy! LOL

G3farms
Jul 18th 2009, 06:39 PM
If you look at the clock it was 10:00 in the morning, and no I really could not help it.

I just like to keep things light and have a good laugh.

G3