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View Full Version : New Hive with Supersedure cells



Watchdog2020
Jun 22nd 2010, 06:02 AM
New package this year that had 2 full hive bodies about full when I looked 2 weeks ago so last night I went to put on a Honey super and found an unpleasant surprise. Looks like the girls either arenít happy with the current Queen, or something happened to her. The 1st two frames I pulled had 6+ Supersedure cells on them. Snapped a couple pictures and closed it right back up. Two weeks ago when I checked the hive everything looked great with row after row of eggs, larva and capped brood. Also, there doesnít look like there is a mite issue.

Where do I go from here?


http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs557.snc3/30485_1503555957211_1483603710_31309851_7537242_n. jpg

riverrat
Jun 22nd 2010, 06:50 AM
Mite usually are not a problem the first year of installing a package. It is not uncommon for a new package of bees to supercede the queen. Sounds like you got a good hive going for you

G3farms
Jun 22nd 2010, 06:50 AM
The only thing you can do is wait for the arrival of your new queen. It takes 16 days for her to hatch (from egg to queen), looks like the queen cells are capped so she will be out within the week. She should mate in 5 -10 days and then give her another week to get started laying good. In about 3 weeks look for signs of eggs and larva.

G3

Watchdog2020
Jun 22nd 2010, 12:41 PM
The brood pattern looked nice on the frames and had various stages of development. Do they just decide they donít like her? Because I can only find information on them doing it if she begins to falter with her laying or is dead. She looks like a laying machine. How often does this occur because my heart sank when I pulled that frame last night Ė LOL

riverrat
Jun 22nd 2010, 02:06 PM
I dont have statistics on how often it happens. But it does happen quit frequently. When you buy a package of bees you dont get the queen that was in the hive with the bees you get. I dont know if this has something to do with it or not.

tecumseh
Jun 22nd 2010, 07:51 PM
snip...
New package this year that had 2 full hive bodies about full when I looked 2 weeks ago

tecumseh:
what makes you think they are supersecedure cells?

there is evidence in your picture that they are not.

riverrat
Jun 22nd 2010, 08:10 PM
good eye tech in pic d you can see the bottom of the frame. I didnt catch that. My first clue should have been 6 + supercedure cells. It either has or is going to swarm I would split the hive asap. Tec you the man with an eye :thumbsup:

Iddee
Jun 22nd 2010, 10:16 PM
Looks like Tec has this one under control. I'll just go elsewhere to try and help.
Too many to be supercedure.

sqkcrk
Jun 23rd 2010, 05:19 AM
I don't know guys. Looks to me like they were drawn from worker cells, not from queen cups.

Either way, should some selective reduction be done? Even if each frame w/ cells on it is moved to a nuc box?

:) Hey Watchdog,
You're from New York State? I'm only from Brasher Falls, NY, not the whole state. Where exactly, please? :)

tecumseh
Jun 23rd 2010, 06:13 AM
I am not betting the farm Mark that these queen cells are one way or the other. Way too little information to make a definite statement.. so my statement was more of a question than a statement of fact. Riverrat posted my two primary concerns. I do think it is fairly common for a lot of new beekeepers to see cell and say they are swarm cells (or supersecedure cells) when rather than come to some end conclusion it would be better if they collected a bit more information. Just a thought.

Mark being fairly close to the scene of the crime I would think his remedy is the most likely to be right on.

Watchdog2020
Jun 23rd 2010, 06:35 AM
The hive has 2 hive bodies. The lower one has been completely drawn and being used. The top has 7 frames drawn and 2 or 3 frames still under way. Most of the queen cells were in the center of the frame and yes, the 2 in picture 'D' were located near the bottom. The start up queen was clipped, so if she swarmed she didn't get very far.

I was guessing supersecedure because of the clipped queen, plenty of available space not used yet and they looked like they were drawn from worker cells and not cups hanging off the bottom.

Yes I'm VERY new to this and am going it 'on my own' as there are no bee keepers I know close by. I appreciate everyones advise and insight very much. What more information you guys looking for. Name it and I'll open the hive and try my best to get it.

BTW Sqkcrk, I'm from Horseheads, New York (Elmira / Corning) . Looks like a straight line below you on the NY / PA border. If anyone is into NASCAR you can hear the cars at Watkins Glen International Race track from my backyard.

riverrat
Jun 23rd 2010, 06:53 AM
I wish it was that easy but a clipped queen will not control swarming.She will either end up on the ground or a virgin queen will leave with the swarm. Crowding is a cause or swarming. But it has been studied and nectar flows can trigger the impulse as well.

sqkcrk
Jun 23rd 2010, 07:25 AM
Mark being fairly close to the scene of the crime I would think his remedy is the most likely to be right on.

Well, I don't know about that. I'd really rather have my hands on the problems. e communication is only just slightly better than a phone conversation, at best. But thanks for the vote of confidence. Sometimes distance gives one better perspective.

sqkcrk
Jun 23rd 2010, 07:31 AM
Yes I'm VERY new to this and am going it 'on my own' as there are no bee keepers I know close by. I appreciate everyones advise and insight very much. What more information you guys looking for. Name it and I'll open the hive and try my best to get it.

BTW Sqkcrk, I'm from Horseheads, New York (Elmira / Corning) . Looks like a straight line below you on the NY / PA border. If anyone is into NASCAR you can hear the cars at Watkins Glen International Race track from my backyard.

Maybe you haven't met them yet, but there are lots of really good beekeepers right there in your area. I hope you will come up to Ithaca and attend the Empire State Honey Producers Association Summer Picnic at Cornells' Dyce Lab on Saturday July 24th. You can meet beekeepers there.

If you go to eshpa.org you can find a beekeepers' club near you.

Are you familiar w/ Wixson Honey Company, Dundee, NY? Go to Jerry for your jars and caps and/or honeybears.

tecumseh
Jun 23rd 2010, 07:41 AM
watchdog:
we are all learning as we plod along here.... it is at least part of the allure of beekeeping that you can do this one simple thing for what some folks seem to think is a very long time and witness new stuff all the time and on occasions have that 'oh my' moment even when you you are ancient (or at least that seems to be what some folks think???).

at this point no matter if the cells are supersecedure or swarm you will not be able to do much about it except to take advantage of the situation. I would likely remove a small nuc (with one or two cells/box) and wait and see if the hive swarms or if they simply replace the old queen. the cells appear to be not that old yet, so there is a good chance the hive has not yet swarmed (if indeed that is what they have decided to do).

as has been pointed out a clipped queen certainly makes locating the swarm easier. on occasions (I am told) the old clipped queen will return to the hive, reasonable if you do not see this directly you would never know that a swarm has actually issued from the hive.

further information sometimes is extremely expensive and there can be a risk there also. if the hive is question had a contracting brood nest created via the accumulation of lots of nectar and was somewhat to highly crowded I would suspect swarming (first year queen or not). quite typically with supersecedure cells are few and crowding or backfilling the brood nest are rarely noted.

good luck with the beekeeping...

ps to Mark... I was trying to suggest that you likely had much more current information on the season and flows that someone quite distant.

sqkcrk
Jun 23rd 2010, 07:54 AM
I understand. This beekeeper is about 250 miles away from me, so I'm not really that aware of what is going on where he (it is he watchdog, isn't it?) is. But, friends in Utica and midNew York have had decent nectar flows that I haven't had here yet.

Watchdog2020
Jun 23rd 2010, 10:46 AM
Just had a thought. I removed the feeders a week ago. Could the lack of free food cause them to get strange? We have a ton of stuff booming, but I'm still trying to figure out flowers -vs- nectar flow. - LOL

sqkcrk
Jun 23rd 2010, 11:23 AM
"flowers versus nectar flow"? I don't know what you mean. Nectar comes from flowers.

Removing supers doesn't promote queencell production. Crowding a hive w/ honey from syrup or nectar maybe the cause of your colonys' queen propuction.

But I like the supercedure due to package bees idea better.

tecumseh
Jun 23rd 2010, 08:22 PM
a significant level of feed can create the the same condition as a good honey flow with the net effect of back filling the brood nest and thereby limiting the room for a queen to lay.

two stark differences:
supercedure generally happens quite quickly... the most extreme case being emergency supercedure where you accidental kill a queen via some manipultion.

swarming generally takes much longer to occur with a number of sources suggesting preparation for swarming likely begins 30 days prior to swarming.

alleyyooper
Jun 24th 2010, 09:25 AM
A questionaire handed out last year in 3 of our bee clubs Came back with the results of package queens being superceded.

Members reported how many times they saw it in their packages to a tune of it happens about 60% of the time here.

That iws also a common complaint at club meetings the quailty of package queens gentics or what ever it is causeing the supercedures.

:mrgreen: Al

tecumseh
Jun 24th 2010, 04:27 PM
interesting statistic Al.

in a fairly insightful 1980 blind test of packages (I seem to recall it as being performed and paid for by the State of Nebraska) superscedure rates were highly related to supplier with the ultimate cause being attributed to nosema apis. Some supplier's superscedure rates approached 100%... one notable exceptions had 0% superscedure rates.

I would also suspect how long a queen is allowed to lay in mating nucs before she is caught would somewhat effect superscedure rates.