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Bens-Bees
Apr 25th 2012, 06:52 PM
I talked to one of our association members that breeds queens about the process, but one thing is still eluding me, how do you get the queens mated? Seems to me that if you let them mate before banking them they would kill each other, or, if you bank them without being mated, will they mate if you use them months later?

Also, you know how you have the little cell protectors? I noticed those were open on the ends, so what's to keep the queens from walking out and fighting each other in deathmatches?

tecumseh
Apr 26th 2012, 05:06 AM
Bens writes:
how do you get the queens mated?

tecumseh:
those girls don't need a script. they have known quite well how to do 'that' for several million years.

most queens are 'open mated'.... meaning they mate in the air with whatever drones are available.

most queens are 'banked' after mating and just as a bit later than they first begin to lay.

cell protectors come in several varieties and you are confusing the purpose of these somewhat. the cell protectors you describe are to limit old work bees and virgins from chewing out the side of a cell and then murdering the bee inside the cell. other look more like hair curlers and are likely what you are thinking you might need to store virgins after they emerge for a short period of time. you can make the same kind of device from hardware wire and a bit of wood dowel.

Bens-Bees
Apr 26th 2012, 05:50 PM
No I was thinking of the ones for keeping other queens from stinging the sides of the cells. I'm still confused though, if you've got some 10-20 queens hatching out at relatively the same time in the same hive, what keeps them from all fighting and killing each other while waiting on them to get mated? I'm missing something here.

Iddee
Apr 26th 2012, 06:56 PM
You remove the cells while capped and place one per mating nuc. You never let one emerge while in a hive with others.

G3farms
Apr 26th 2012, 08:47 PM
3484

Some will bank there queens in a nuc or 1/2 frame nucs.

These are deep frames the one on the left is a 1/2 frame, I just cut the top and bottom bars in half and cut a sheet of foundation in half, just need to ake some of the dcoates plywood nucs to put them in.

Bens-Bees
Apr 27th 2012, 07:08 PM
Ok that makes a LITTLE more sense... but now I have another question... why not just whip up some 2-frame nucs and every week give each one a new frame of eggs to make a new queen with and as the queens hatch and mate you just grab 'em and bank 'em in a seperate nuc? Seems like that would be much easier with less equipment to buy and less manipulation required.

One more thing, if you don't let the bees choose the eggs to make queens with, and don't let the queens deathmatch to get the strongest genetics, how can you ensure any of those queens will be worth a red nickel?

Iddee
Apr 27th 2012, 07:22 PM
Emergency cell queens are said to be inferior to grafted queens.

When earning a living, you don't go for the best genetics. You go for the most laying queens. That's why 60% of packages and bought queens are superceded within the first 60 days.

Bens-Bees
Apr 28th 2012, 08:58 PM
Emergency cell queens are said to be inferior to grafted queens.



60% of packages and bought queens are superceded within the first 60 days.

Those two things seem to be contradictory. Unless of course emergency queens are also superceded typically.


When earning a living, you don't go for the best genetics. You go for the most laying queens.


But if you need a nuc for each, can't you make just as many queens with the method I suggested?

tecumseh
Apr 29th 2012, 04:54 AM
Iddee writes:

Emergency cell queens are said to be inferior to grafted queens.

When earning a living, you don't go for the best genetics. You go for the most laying queens. That's why 60% of packages and bought queens are superceded within the first 60 days.

tecumseh:
everyone has their opinion but I for one am not certain a human's determination of emergency vs whatever kind of cell would make one bit of difference in the end quality of the queen. I suspect Jay Smith would suggest the micro environment in which it was raised made more difference than anything else.... and therefore reproduce the best micro environment and you will produce a better quality queen.

of course some queen rearing folks do try to encourage an environment where the best genetics are encouraged... without a doubt in an 'open breeding' system no one has absolute control over the end product.

I suspect there is a long list of factors that results in a superscedure rate of that level. I myself would look to the ULTIMATE source of bee and queens if I even suspect a superscedure rate of that proportion.

ps... the last time this kind of superscedure rate was identified (some 30 years ago with some queen rearing folks having 100% superscedure rates and some having 0%) nosema was the most likely suspect <a conclusion drawn based on how certain things were done by the individual queen rearing firms.

Iddee
Apr 29th 2012, 07:01 AM
""Emergency cell queens are said to be inferior to grafted queens.""

I'm like Tec, I don't believe it either, but many folks do.

My thoughts are that they supercede often, NOT because of the quality of the queen, but because she is not "theirs". Just my opinion.......

If I were raising a few queens for myself, I would use emergency cells.
If I were going commercial and make hundreds of queens weekly, I would graft.

Eddy Honey
Apr 29th 2012, 06:53 PM
Aren't all queens "emergency" queens unless they're for swarm preparation?

If the bees have a queen and they don't like her they make a queen out of whatever resources they have....same as if the queen was mamed or killed they would make a queen out of whatever resources they have

Just thinking out loud.

tecumseh
Apr 30th 2012, 05:49 AM
imho..... these kinds of determination are man made so that we can somewhat better understand what is going on in some alien terrain.

and yes the language itself is somewhat confused. for example I often rear queens in a swarm box (essentially just a screened box with a lot of bees and a bit of feed and pollen added)... quite obvious to me the bees have are in emergency situation, so why is this device called a 'swarm box'?

ps... in the literature specifically related to queen rearing, queens are stated to be reared for emergency, superscedure or swarming purposes. so no, all cells are not made simply for emergency situations.

Barbarian
May 2nd 2012, 01:10 PM
This forum does open my eyes to different attitudes to Q rearing and other issues.

In the UK, the opinion is that deliberate Q rearing should be be done in a strong well fed hive. The idea is that the larvae gets a super abundance of food to become a fully developed Q. When the Q cells are sealed they can be transferred to several smaller mating nucs.

If a Q is raised from an egg in a 2 frame nuc, it is might be called a 'scrub' Q and poorly regarded.

Iddee
May 2nd 2012, 01:38 PM
You are correct, BUT

A 2 frame nuc with 1 1/2 frame of honey and pollen, and 3 lbs. of bees, so many that they are bearding on the outside, it is a strong, well fed hive.