11 Frame Brood Box ??

Discussion in 'General Beekeeping' started by markles, May 14, 2012.

  1. markles

    markles New Member

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    Good morning all
    Just wondering what experiences folk have had with 11 no. 32mm (1 ¼â€) frames in a 10 frame brood box. On “the other site†Michael Bush puts up a very strong argument for using them. I have made up two sets of these slightly thinner frames to try although I do realise that all uniformity/inter-changeability goes out the window. I have marked them clearly so it won’t be a problem of mixing them up with the full width frames by mistake. I can see I’m going to get “bashed†on this but it seems like a interesting experiment. Just having some fun.:roll:
    Cheers for now
    Mark
     
  2. Bens-Bees

    Bens-Bees New Member

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    I haven't tried it nor have I seen the post making the case for it so I don't think I can say either way, but I did want to ask for the link to the post making a case for them.

    I currently use 8-frame hives, so I doubt it would even fit at all.

    I did see where one guy used all 13 frame deeps (square boxes) and swore by them but said that you need two people to work the bees because they are so heavy.
     

  3. markles

    markles New Member

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  4. tecumseh

    tecumseh New Member

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    if I was from South Africa and had smaller bees of south African origin I would likely give this a try. after all beyond all the rhetoric it is at least partially 'the underlying reason' why folks attempt (weakly I might add) to justify this here.

    as far as doing this with European type bees and given the almost certainty that the German black bee (apis meli. meli.) is now gone I myself think it is a bit big headed that someone might presume they know more than the accumulated knowledge of several hundred years of practice and application.

    about 30 years ago their was a fellow who if I recall properly was named Hoover that promoted this same thing. He and Carlie Martz use to get into little verbal spats over the thinly constructed ideas of mr hoover... not so oddly I don't see mr hoover name pasted all over the bee magazines 40 years later. some ideas and things endure and some are just the latest fashion.

    if you really wanted to go to thinner frames then find a bad commercial operation with an uncapper that is need of adjustment. all those frames will be shaved.
     
  5. kebee

    kebee Active Member

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    Personaly I think this would cause a ventilation problem in the hive.

    kebee
     
  6. tecumseh

    tecumseh New Member

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    yes that to kebee. I also like some people purely speculative notion that they will 'roll less bees' with 11 frames in one box. can you say HUH!
     
  7. G3farms

    G3farms New Member

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    I have never done it, but to me seems like rolling bees and removing frames would be on the difficult side.
     
  8. Iddee

    Iddee New Member

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    I'm just not confident enough in my bee knowledge to say I know more than L. L. Langstroth. I think I will keep with his measurements for now.
     
  9. Omie

    Omie New Member

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    Some people do have small cell bees which actually are smaller than the usual commercial Italian bees raised on larger cell foundation. Not German Black bees, not African bees, but merely small cell or natural cell bees. I've been noticing my own natural cell bees (which started out as Don K.'s small cell bees) are visibly smaller this year than the bees I see in other people's Italian packages coming in.

    But that detail aside, I think we all experiment with our beekeeping in one way or another...it's a fascinating part of how we learn. Beekeeping varies so much from one region and climate to another anyway, there are many aspects and details ripe for trying new things. I like to keep in mind that Langstroth himself was experimenting when he came up with his 'radical' new methods. :eek:ldtimer:

    I think there are a lot of enthusiastic BKs today trying all kinds of things out, both experienced BKs and newbies. I don't really see them as being 'big-headed' or presuming they know more than everyone else. Rather, I get the impression that they simply write about what they are doing and why they feel it's working for them and why they think it's a good thing.
    Nobody forces anyone to do anything. I like hearing about various inventive methods being tried out! After all, honeybee environmental factors here in the U.S. have drastically changed over the past two hundred years- why shouldn't we expect there might be a few changes worth considering in beekeeping methods as well?
     
  10. tecumseh

    tecumseh New Member

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    an Omie snip..
    Some people do have small cell bees which actually are smaller than the usual commercial Italian bees raised on larger cell foundation.

    tecumseh:
    within the same hive and dependent on season some time I have bees that are smaller and sometimes I have bees that are larger. don't know but I would assume this is seasonal and dietary in it origin. mind you both were reared in the same sized cells and just about all are italian (although none of my girls proclaim to be commercial).

    on the other hand you are quite correct Omie experimentation, at least for me, is one of the great joys of beekeeping. testing this on that and seeing how stuff works out in the real world is something a lot of beekeepers large and small do. for me these never seem to cost much and from time to time how I see things can be very much altered.

    if you read back thru the old journals you also realize that a lot of good ideas just don't pan out in the real world. some do... most don't... someone I suspect forgot to consider >there is an old adage amongst the old school queen rearing folks that when it come to breeding for everything you gain you give up something.
     
  11. markles

    markles New Member

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    Thanks for the comments everyone. If I came across as a “know it all” I apologise. On the contrary, the more I learn, the more I realise just how little I know. Having read some literature (good or bad – hard to know what’s wrong or right when you have a sparse data-base) it makes sense to me that our “bee-keeping pioneers” might have adopted a good average width to suit both brood and honey comb thickness in the interests of conformity (3mm is very small). Our main reference book here is entitled Beekeeping in South Africa and is fondly referred to as “The Blue Book”. In this book they also refer to the brood frames as being 32mm or 35mm wide and super frames 35mm only. I’m not trying to re-invent the wheel, just satisfy a curiosity. I also understand that bees from different regions vary slightly in their behaviour/requirements. Anyway, I’ve got a newly trapped swarm building on 32mm frames now so I’ll soon be able to see first-hand how they like it.

    Let me be totally honest – I don’t even understand some of the literature I read. From the replies it looks like no-one has been silly enough to try it. This won’t be the first time I’ve made an arse of myself – ask my wife and kids

    Still having fun!!. :smile:

    Mark
     
  12. efmesch

    efmesch Active Member

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    An important lesson: It's the bottom line that counts. :cool:

    Another comment/question---Why should the thinner frames be unusable in ten frame hives? Just spread them out wider by hand and they should be fine. The bees should extend the cells to fill in the wider spaces and all should be normal if you decide to abandon the 11 frame method.
     
  13. jb63

    jb63 New Member

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    Theohiocountryboy has a you tube video using 11 frame equipment. I cut down 5-6 boxes of deeps this winter to give it a try.I probably won't have an opinion for another couple of months.
     
  14. markles

    markles New Member

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    Efmesch
    Yeah, I dont see the narrower frames being un-useable. If I have to I'll just put a 1 ½ mm spacer on each side - or maybe just mix them with the full width frames.

    jb63
    Thanks, I hope you'll post your findings - good luck.
     
  15. hankdog1

    hankdog1 New Member

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    Going shed some light on the subject of why Mr. Bush does things out of the box. Him and the folks that follow him closely lay out some pretty big claims. Mr. Bush makes a living off of going around talking at bee meetings. Now Iddee here on the forum is one of the most experienced beekeepers I've ever had the pleasure to know. Iddee tells you how to keep bees conventionally and successfully I might add but he isn't making a living off of this. In the end I can keep bees in 10 frame boxes with 10 frames and foundation just as good as Mr. Bush can and be just as strong. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying Mr. Bush is a bad beekeeper or anything of the sort but what I am saying is there are easier ways to skin a cat then shaving frames to fit 11 in a box.
     
  16. Dakine

    Dakine New Member

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    It probably won't take to long to blow your back using 11 frames. Better to stick with a lighter load.
     
  17. tecumseh

    tecumseh New Member

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    nicely said hankdog....

    I would suggest that if you have a traditional system and it works well for you then what would encourage you to go to all the effort and reconfiguration to attempt something that may quite likely encourage larger problems and at the same time require more effort (and by association more time and money)?

    at the end of the day I always ask myself what is gained by making this change???
     
  18. hankdog1

    hankdog1 New Member

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    tecumseh did lightning just strike me dead? First time I've ever been able to make those comments without taking a thrashing for it let alone someone agree with me. I just think that most of this stuff is a fad and will pass eventually. Of course he may end up in one of the bee mags and all the sudden you can buy shaved down frames from the suppliers. May actually live to eat those words.
     
  19. Omie

    Omie New Member

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    I like to read about different people's ways of beekeeping. I like to read Iddee's very knowledgeable postings. I like Mr. Bush's writings and website too, i have found them very helpful to my understanding of bees, and his website lets me consider other viewpoints. I try the things I feel like trying from his writings, and I leave the stuff I don't care to experiment with. I don't see him promoting anything that he hasn't tried himself successfully, nor do I read where he says everyone must do everything the way he says.
    Bee clubs hire all kinds of speakers. If everyone did everything the same way there would be no need for speakers, we could all just read the same instruction manual.
    So what's the big deal? Does everyone have to keep bees exactly the same way?