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3 deep brood chamber

15K views 44 replies 19 participants last post by  Ray 
#1 ·
Im thinking of experimenting around with some of my hives using 3 deeps for brood. I got the extra hive bodies. I got one yard that I have went to 3 deep brood boxes on 2 of the hives just to see what they do. I can see some advantages with the extra brood area but also some disadvantages has anyone tried this and what was your findings.
 
#2 ·
I'm doing something similar with my honey production hives. Since the flow always seems to end at the end of June and then there is pretty much nothing going on until next spring I decided to use three deeps. Initially they use the third deep for some brood rearing but generally back fill it with honey along with filling a 4th deep. I harvest the 4th deep and leave the third deep for the bees. My biggest problem is starvation so I'm trying to mitigate the issue with the third deep of honey. Hopefully it works out.
 
#3 ·
One of the reason Im wanting to do this is to get away from having to feed. I know syrup is cheaper than honey but when you go putting your time and gas into feeding its not much cheaper than honey. Im hoping to find the hives build up bigger and have less swarming.
 
#4 ·
have you ever done the bee math in regards to the brood nest required for a queen of a given (usually denoted as X for the math folks in the audience) egg laying capacity? If you have 'a' queen capable of filling those three boxes with brood then you need to sell or give her to me.

more surplus left in a hive will not (as a general rule) equate to a larger hive of bees come next spring time although certainly excessiive resources in a hive will equate to a larger hive than one with none (which typically means the hive starved sometime in the early spring).
 
#5 ·
Lets do a little math then..............I love it!

Please note these are just approximates only, your bees will vary and this is not counting burr comb or holes in the foundation.
I was using Kelley's wax foundation for counting purposes.

first of all there are approx. 77 cells across a standard Lang frame
then approx. 46 cells high on a deep Lang frame

total of 3,542 cells on one side
total of 7,084 cells total for a Lang deep frame

Now lets look at the queen....
If she can lay 1500 eggs per day it will take 4.7 days to completely fill a deep frame
if she can lay 2000 eggs per day it will take 3.5 days to completely fill a deep frame

so for the ease of math and to be able to picture it in your head a little easier average the days out and you come up with 4.1 days, so lets just say 4 days to fill a deep frame with eggs, that makes her laying 1,771 eggs per day (pretty good work out). If she lays non stop 24/7 that gives her 49 seconds per egg (very doable number).

Now every four days there is a deep frame completely filled with eggs and it takes 21 days for the brood to hatch out. So 21/4 is 5.25.
She can only fill out 5.25 frames before the first laid eggs are new hatching brood.

Now we all know that the deep frames are not (well for the most part, yes I have seen some deep frames almost a complete brood pattern) completely solid with brood, there is honey and bee bread surrounding the brood.

I would think for the most part if you have six to seven deep frames of a good laying pattern of brood in all stages you have a super good queen.

I know I will get blasted by others so let it rip.
 
#6 ·
Well now lets look at the flip side of the post........

Three deep boxes with brood in all of them.

Lets just say she will lay six frames of eggs in the deep, the other two being honey and pollen.
That is 18 frames before the first laid eggs hatch as brood, that would be around 127,512 cells or 6,072 eggs per day.
Well that works out to be an egg laid every 14 seconds on a 24/7 schedule, I really doubt it.

What do you all think???
 
#9 ·
I agree with your numbers but have maybe been over thinking on the unlimited brood chamber idea. Im thinking the hives may do better in 3 instead of 2. I know 2 is better than 1 and 3 may be better than 2 but some where you will endup going the opposite direction ie 3 is better than 4. Im trying to think outside the box sometimes we forget to try new ideas and we do things just because lang, huber, dadant, root or some of the other noted keeps of days gone by discovered that there ideas work. However when they began experimenting with there discoveries the were unproven at the time. Its been several years since a big discovery has came out of beekeeping and I know there is some to be found but we have become complacent in what works so use it.
 
#11 ·
rast said:
Just my experience. When I tried 3 deeps in our winter, I wound up with an empty bottom box. She (they) just moved up towards the stored honey and syrup.
Did they ever move back down into the lower box during the spring or summer
 
#13 ·
i dont reverse boxes in the wild bees naturally work down. Although I know it is a common practice to put the empty deep on top. I havce found they will work down into the bottom as summer progresses along. I was wondering if they will work all the way down into the 3rd deep
 
#16 ·
Iddee said:
They will gather at the bottom of the honey stores. If there is enough honey, they will move down. If not, they won't. Reversing does nothing but upset their system and cause them more work.
I guess it depends when you reverse. If the bottom box is completely empty of bees in early spring and the middle box and top box contains brood and bees I will certaintly move the bottom box to the top. I have seen no adverse affects from this.
 
#17 ·
I use deep supers/ brood chambers exclusively--rotating in spring, and using queen excluder for the deeps I intend for honey harvesting. I rotate 2 times, and then after the main nectar flow, allow the bees to start to back fill the upper chamber for the winter, I will let the bees have everything from July on as there is seldom a really strong flow in the fall, and the honey as stated before at least to me is of a inferior grade to that collected in the spring and early summer.
Barry
 
#18 ·
Hi, yes, my NUCS are doing great, they are in a two deep brood chamber, the bees are buzzing and I'm going to put on a honey super this weekend, the girls are very busy. I'm working with new foundation, so the have to work really hard to draw comb as well as all that other stuff.. Not holding my breath for honey this year! Hopefully, I'll have drawn comb on the foundation for next year though!!
 
#20 ·
I have always made it a practice to reduce all my bees to 2 deeps/ brood chambers for wintering. with top chamber being a full honey super. Of course there will be be very modest amounts of honey stored in the lower brood chambers as bes will always store honey/ pollen towards the top and corners of brood frames. but the point is that I leave a full deep super/ brood chamber of honey for the winter.I have lost colonies in the harsh winters of upstate NY, 2 colonies to be exact one was starvation, I know that, and changed management styles to ensoure would not happen again--second colony--had plenty of honey, no bees not even inside the cells nothing. so am at a loss to know what happened. Colony dwindle seems to be surging again like CCD or something similiar.
Barry
 
#21 ·
Having read; 'The Complete Idiot's Guide to Beekeeping' by Dean Stiglitz and Laurie Herboldsheimer, and their opinion on Unlimited Broodnest. I thought it necessary to revisit this thread.
​One cannot argue with G3farms' numbers but.... is there more to this than just numbers?
The Authors' suggestion that the extra capacity (for stores) is necessary, to carry the hive through dearths, but that is still a stretch using G3farms' numbers.

Please be kind, it took me two days to work up nerve enough to read PerryBee's post 'moron'
 
#22 ·
The hives I tried using 3 deep brood chambers did not do as well as the doubles. Not sure why but they didnt take off like planned. However none of my hives done real well in the last few years due to drought conditions.
 
#23 ·
Would the pros and cons be different with different bee breed types, different climates and flow patterns? Some people enjoy fiddling with feeding while others will take the lost honey any day over the task of feeding. If it improves overwintering odds it may be worth the extra equipment factor. Will 3 deeps net more honey than 2? Lots more work in inspecting or finding a queen. The stack is going to be a fair percentage higher; I have to stand on a block now to pull the fourth medium super off a double deep... A couple of vocal proponents of unlimited brood claim to manipulate by the box full and do little frame by frame inspection; does three deeps make more of a lazy mans way or lower stress for the keep? I bet three deeps seldom have the problem of being pollen starved. Scattered thoughts!
 
#24 ·
Please be kind, it took me two days to work up nerve enough to read PerryBee's post 'moron'
I got a real belly laugh out of that one!!

I started out with all deeps for brood and honey production, seemed no matter how many you stacked up she would never make it out of the second deep unless the brood nest was just a couple of frames wide and extended up through the middle of the boxes, still just so much brood no matter how you arranged it.
 
#25 ·
The brood nest in my 3 deeps looks like a giant football.
Lots of pollen in the bottom box with brood on 2-3 middle frames.
Lots of brood in the middle box (7-8 frames)with honey/pollen around the brood on most frames.
Lots of honey in the top box with brood on the lower portion of the 3-4 middle frames; Capped honey everywhere else.

This was our best year for honey harvest.
The experiment continues............
 
#26 ·
I have 1 deep and 3 mediums. Deep on bottom, med,med,med. I find my queen will just pic a box to lay her brood. Three weeks ago, the top box was all brood. Today I went in the hive and in the 3rd box (med) she had filled it with brood while the deep was mostly open comb. Three capped frames honey in the top med and two in the 2nd box. About equal amounts of open comb and partially filled honey. No SHBs. Obviously no excluder. I've stopped using them. I like the idea that she can move around as she sees fit. I did a rotation, though. I feel like it's less disruptive when I'm inspecting the boxes and taking them off one by one, to put the first on a bottom board, and then the others on top of that. Doesn't really move the hive and if they were feeling cramped, it opens up some options. I was seeing lots of bees at the entrance. Hope it helps.
 
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