8 frame super question

Discussion in 'Beekeeping 101' started by stugger57, Nov 8, 2013.

  1. stugger57

    stugger57 New Member

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    It might an obvious answer but I would like to know why 8 frame supers will take 9 frames to completely fill them up. I have not used 9 frames in my brood box or honey super because of fear of not providing enough space. I can't seem to find info on this question so will ask the experts here. Thanks!
     
  2. Ray

    Ray Member

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    Slop. I don't have the 8 frame dimensions at hand. Here are the 10 frames

    A ten frame measures 16 1/4 wide
    Subtract 1 1/2 ( 2 boards 3/4 inch thick)
    Leaves 14 3/4 inches inside measure
    11 frames @ 1 1/4 = 14 1/4
    10 frames @ 1 3/8 = 13 3/4
    9 frames @ 1 1/2 = 13 1/2

     

  3. Oblio13

    Oblio13 New Member

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    Push all eight frames together in the center of the box. There will be a little extra space left over on each side. That allows you to get the frames in and out without rolling too many bees.

    When you want to remove a frame, smoke down the side of the box to move the bees out of the way. Use your hive tool to break the first frame free, and move it over to the extra space along the side of the box. Now you can lift it out.
     
    brian barnard likes this.
  4. Lburou

    Lburou Member

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    In order to get 9 frames in my Mann Lake hive body, it was necessary to trim the end pieces of the frames with a table saw. Even after the modification, the frames are difficult to work. I won't do it again, my choice, not saying you shouldn't try it.

    That said, its important to understand that you might want to do this in a hive body that will house the brood chamber. There is no value added doing this in the honey supers. One more thing, different manufacturers have different hive measurements, you'll want to ferret that out as you decide what to do and which equipment to use, or what size you make your equipment. HTH

    :)
     
  5. ApisBees

    ApisBees Active Member

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    as Ray stated the brood bee spacing ideally is 1 3/8" and if your frames are 1 3/8 only 10 will fit in a standard super but if they are 1/16 of an inch narrow you can put in 11 frames.
     
  6. stugger57

    stugger57 New Member

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    Thanks, working area makes perfect sense.
     
  7. riverbee

    riverbee Active Member

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    well stuger, i use 9 frames in a 10 frame deep and 8 frames in a 9 frame medium super. guy beeks have to get all mathematical.......:lol:
    the way i look at it is, like you said, i can get the frames out easier without rolling too many bees or mashing the queen, (and some other reasons) but most of all, i love the 9 frame supers when they are filled with honey, and i don't push my frames together in either brood box or supers, i space them out equally. i haven't used 8 frame equipment, but might try someday soon.
    one more thought, when i want to remove frames in my deep brood box, i don't pry the first end frame and pull that out first, i loosen it, loosen the 2nd frame, and remove that frame first. why? the first frame almost always has some sort of brace comb going on it to the side of the deep. i want to work in, so that 2nd frame comes out, and now can move my way in freely.
    and ps, if i were you i would stick with your 8 frames......:grin:
     
  8. tecumseh

    tecumseh New Member

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    a snip...
    It might an obvious answer but I would like to know why 8 frame supers will take 9 frames to completely fill them up.

    tecumseh..
    If I am properly reading this question then you seem to suggest you can insert 9 frames into an 8 frame box?

    If yes then 1) the frames have been purposefully 'shaved' or not so purposefully 'shaved' by an automatic uncapper < like a silver queen uncapper where the knives have been improperly set or 2) the boxes are homemade and the exterior dimension are a bit too wide. Shaving is precisely what Apisbee and Lbruou describe above and as a practice has been something that has been suggested by several different individuals over the past 50 years or so. As far as I can determine it is a 'fad' that seems to come around about once ever 20 to 25 years or so. <for some reason I can recall an 'conversation'* on shaving some 40 years or so ago between Charlie Mraz and a fellow by the name of Hubbard in the old journals that was often quite entertaining.

    *by conversation I mean one would write an article in the bee journal endorsing shaving and the other would then respond by suggest why this was not a good idea.
     
  9. Ray

    Ray Member

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    Micheal Bush on his website and in his book espouse the narrower frames. The main idea is that smaller cells require narrower comb spacing. I realize Dee Lusby's, and others, claims haven't been scientifically proven.

    This forum has been a little slow of late, anybody want to discuss small cell?
     
  10. ApisBees

    ApisBees Active Member

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    It comes down to what you figure is the best bee space, 3/8" or 5/16th " will let you determine the spacing. regardless once the bees add propolis to the end bars you soon lose the space for the extra frame.
     
  11. ApisBees

    ApisBees Active Member

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    If African bees are in the area you are building them the perfect size cells for them to come and take over.
    1, The original theory behind small cell was that is the natural cell size of the African bees and they are not affected by the mite to the same extent as the European bees are so it must be cell size. The fact that the worker brood emerges 1 day sooner, they are much more aggressive about pests, they will abscond and a new swarm would readily take up residents in the abandoned space but with the break in brood any mites would be controlled.
    2, Mites have evolved in to preferring drone brood cells cause of the longer caped brood cycle. So worker cell size is a mute point now. as mites gravitate to drone cells.
     
  12. Ray

    Ray Member

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    All the following has been taken from Micheal Bush's web site:http--www.bushfarms.com-bees.htm

    Frame spacing:
    In my observation, there is also variation by how you space the frames, or variation on how THEY space the combs. 38 mm (1 ½") will result in larger cells than 35 mm (1 3/8") which will be larger than 32 mm (1 ¼"). In naturally spaced comb the bees will sometimes crowd the combs down to 30 mm in places with 32 mm more common in just brood comb and 35mm more common where there is drone on the comb.


    So what is natural comb spacing? It is the same problem as saying what natural cell size is. It depends.

    Cell size:
    Baudoux 1893
    Made bees larger by using larger cells. Pinchot, Gontarski and others got the size up as large as 5.74 mm. But AI Root's first foundation was 5 cells to an inch which is 5.08 mm. Later he started making it 4.83 cells per inch. This is equivalent to 5.26 mm. (ABC XYZ of beekeeping 1945 edition page 125-126.)


    I wonder what breed of honeybee these cell sizes where designed around. The Italian Honeybee came to this continent about 1860. I am assuming that A.I. Root did his work on this side of the Atlantic.
    The German bee is supposed to be the largest of the European honeybees. They would be better suited for a larger foundation.

    Disclaimer: I am NOT claiming ANY benefits for using a small cell system!
     
  13. riverbee

    riverbee Active Member

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    ray said:
    "This forum has been a little slow of late, anybody want to discuss small cell?"

    yes it has ray i will jump in.....with all due respect ray, i don't need michael bush's website......
    or technicalities...... been a beekeeper long enough to figure out spacing of frames in a hive, all this hoohah is relative; meaning to your own method and practice, your experience and the bees, and know the quirks of your bee race, and whether we keep langs, top bars or 8 framers or in something else.......:lol:
    what matters is what works and that you have success at it. there is no 'this is the way to do it' type thing in keeping bees; small cell foundation, centering frames, 8 frames vs 9 or 10 frames, plastic or wax foundation, drone foundation, mathematical equations etc. makes newer keeps head's spin.....well i am an older keep and makes my head spin.......keeping bees isn't about mathematics or the size of foundation, or whether a frame is shaved off, the exact science of bee space,( btw, bees will tell you what their bee space is).......etc......
    i am forgetting something here to stir up the pot....:lol:

    i am still of the old ways, (to a certain degree) except jack, forgive me, i did switch to plastic foundation.......:lol:
    i try to keep keeping bees simple, and that is how i teach others.

    anyway, i think the important factors are to keep bees the way that works for you, and if you don't know how it works best for you, i guess like me you will spend the rest of your life trying to figure it out and make the bees happy and productive, and in the meantime drive yourself and your family absolutely thinking you have lost your mind doing so.....:lol:
    btw, visit beekeeping forums and pick the brains of all the beekeepers and errr, mathematicians here works great too.....:lol:

    and stugger i sincerely hope you have found some useful information in our posts to your original question.......if not just say so.....:grin:
     
  14. stugger57

    stugger57 New Member

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    Great information

    Yes, I have found this information to very helpful and beyond what I have read in magazines and my Backyard Beekeeper book. Having this forum is a huge help as I sit as a beginner with my many questions regarding my new hobby. Thank you all!
     
  15. RayMarler

    RayMarler New Member

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    I've seen the same thing, it is distressing as it does not follow correct bee space to use 8 frames and 9 frames fit too tight. I theorize that it's for only needing to remove 1 frame to add the large capacity frame feeders. It is also, perhaps, for using a 3/4" division board to make it into a side by side nuc setup. If not dividing the box or if not using a frame feeder, then I think it's best to use follower boards to make it correct beespace for 8 frames and to help with insulation and air flows in the box. Just some of my thinkings about it.
     
  16. riverbee

    riverbee Active Member

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    "Yes, I have found this information to very helpful and beyond what I have read in magazines and my Backyard Beekeeper book. Having this forum is a huge help as I sit as a beginner with my many questions regarding my new hobby. Thank you all!"

    stugger, thanks for being here, and don't ever be afraid or too shy to ask questions here. magazines and books add to our knowledge, and keep reading. i have an entire library on bees; and while you are reading, just remember don't be afraid to check in here and ask.....cause we are willing to help you out....:grin:
     
  17. RayMarler

    RayMarler New Member

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    And, to add to my earlier post on this thread topic...
    I do like some have suggested, and pushed all frames to the center. The bees then drawn the outside of the two outside frames out too far, so as to make bee space correct for them at the side of the box. That then makes it hard to be able to move those frames to any other position in the box, as one side of the frame is now too wide. I've thought I need to make up follower boards to make proper bee space, but I've just not gotten around to making them. I'd rather be able to purchase boxes that gave the proper bee space with using standard frames. That is why I find it to be a distressing feature for me. BTW, I use Mannlake boxes.
     
  18. tecumseh

    tecumseh New Member

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    howdy Ray.... haven't seen your post in a while.... hopefully everything is going well for you out California way.

    to address some concerns here I am submitting the following post.....

    I pretty much run 9 frames in all my boxes (if I start with new foundation I do start with 10 until the comb is drawn). although I have 9 in a box if you looked there thru out the year you would likely notice that they are not always in the same position. in the spring and summer time each frame is equally spaced across the box but in late fall this all changes < quite typically at the time I add a frame feeder to each hive. at that time I also crowd the frames in the bottom of the stack (brood nest) together. essentially with the flat end of my hive tool and using this as a pry bar I pry the frames together at one corner and then I go to the opposite corner and do the same there < the top bars then appear to be running at an angle to the sides of the box leaving small triangular ares in each corner. come spring time if I have any excessively fat comb then when it is empty I use the flat end of my hive tool to press it into a bit thinner configuration. < quite typically more the upper portion of the comb (that is the area up towards the top bar) than the bottom portion of the comb.

    the 9 frames in a 10 frame box is a habit I acquired from one of my old commercial bee keeping mentors. old habit die hard and sometimes are not the best way to do things < I tend to question any and all of these old habit but tend to 'change ways' in a very slow and well consider fashion. at this time beyond the extra ease in inspection I do think at this location where we have lots of summer heat that 9 frames in a 10 frame box could be rationalized just by the extra ventilation it encourages.
     
  19. rakirby

    rakirby New Member

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    "tecumseh..
    If I am properly reading this question then you seem to suggest you can insert 9 frames into an 8 frame box?

    If yes then 1) the frames have been purposefully 'shaved' or not so purposefully 'shaved' by an automatic uncapper < like a silver queen uncapper where the knives have been improperly set or 2) the boxes are homemade and the exterior dimension are a bit too wide."

    I just bought and put together 8 frame medium hive boxes and frames that I ordered from Mann Lake. Everyone of the boxes will hold 9 of the Mann Lake frames that I ordered and none of the frames have been shaved down intentionally. What is recommended for the number of frames in a brood box vs a honey super?

    Thanks
    Ron K.
     
  20. Crofter

    Crofter New Member

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    Depends on whose recommendations you take!:lol: Have not had my hands on 8 frame gear but have built narrower frames that could go 11 in a ten frame box. It never actually happened because, as has been mentioned earlier in the thread, when you start mixing in with frames that have been in use for a while they pick up enough propolis and wax buildup that getting them in and out becomes a problem.
    This varies a bit with breed of bee and how cold your climate is. I like to nudge the frames sideways a bit before attempting to lift. If they are shoehorned in it is more difficult to get the first one out. This pertains mostly to brood area.

    In the supers you usually dont have to worry about rolling the queen and fewer and fatter frames hold more honey and are easier to uncap. Riverbee had a post on starting out new comb in the supers with the full nominal frame count so they get drawn out evenly. Second time after extracting space them wider and drop one frame. I found that even on the first drawing, after nearly full but not capped I could pull a frame out and space them wider and they would get drawn wider even as they were being filled. Much nicer to uncap with a hot knife but not so critical if you are using a cappings scratcher.

    There are some theoretical advantages proposed for tight spacing frames in the brood area but as many suggestions that ventilation in hot places is better with combs space out wider.

    I push my brood combs tight together centred in the box; if the outside of the outside frame gets drawn wider it is almost always with honey not brood. If you have to put that comb in between partly brooded comb, shake or brush the bees off and press the high spots down with your hive tool. I forget who to thank for that advice but it takes care of most of that problem.

    I find when you start needing to move frames around or from one hive to another the different lumps and bumps (or perhaps queen cells or queen cages) you are trying to accommodate, make a jamb packed brood box more pain than gain.