artificial absconding

Discussion in 'General Beekeeping' started by 2kooldad, Jan 24, 2012.

  1. 2kooldad

    2kooldad New Member

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    still pushing about making the queen leave the hive/brood comb...i asked before if i could make her leave long enuff to catch her outside the hive....that kinda put it to her comming back at some point an me catching her on the way out or going back in.........but........what about making her/them abscond......i had a colony last year that im pretty sure absconded because of a massive SHB larva explosion (cut out comb wired into frames)....i read in one of the ABJ articals that some asian an african honey bees abscond yearly due to a food/climate issue an the author said he didnt know why one of his colonys decided to leave....they just did ......what other reasons do honey bees have to abscond and is it possible to manipulate that into happening by the beekeeper ???
     
  2. Barbarian

    Barbarian New Member

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  3. tecumseh

    tecumseh New Member

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    I would not tag that as artificial absconding but simply as absconding.

    the first primary reason for a hive to abscond is starvation. evidently some african bees will abscond simply upon being disturbed. other primary reasons for a hive to abscond are wax moth infestation that have gone acute (they typically get some foot hold at the top or bottom of the stack and push the bees out). never really seen it here but I would guess shb might do the same thing. here on most occasions 1) the hives is stress by nutrition 2) the shb get some foot hold and do minor damage and 3) the wax moth finishes the job off.

    I really have not removed bees from trees or structure for some time. The reasons for this are multiple, but certainly a low level of success once the shb arrived was one of the reasons. After some discussion with others that still do this kind of things here, I have come to the conclusion that removing a hive in the form of a package and totally discarding the existing comb was a better path (likely to lead to at least some success).
     
  4. 2kooldad

    2kooldad New Member

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    i agree...except with a trapout your not removing the hive an making a new one like a package....your only making an existing hive you already have bigger for a little while....unless you have a bred queen to give them...an at this time of year thats not likely an a virgin queen wont do you any good without drones to breed her....that leaves the already bred queen they already have that most likely you wont get to come out....if she stays then there is no chance to get those genetics...if you want them.....what i want to find out is how to make that percent that she comes out alot better....i shouldnt be worried about this yet....im still learning alot of things veteran beeks have known forever....my mentor...Rast told me so just a few hours ago....but i just have this urge to do my best an learn everything at once....he's guiding my reckless charge so i dont blow myself an my bees up...lol....i dont have any backup in me....sorry to beat a dead horse yall...lol
     
  5. sqkcrk

    sqkcrk New Member

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    RU sending this in from your iPhone? Is that why you aren't using sentences? I find your Posts in this Thread confusing.

    U R trying to get your beehives to abscond? On purpose? Why? If they abscond, how will you retain the bees?

    When you write about artificial absconding I get the impression yoiu are actually writing about artificial swarming, what some call a spring split to avoid natural swarming and the lose of the bees. Is this what you are writing about?

    You are trying to get the queen to leave the hive? After mating flights are over, she won't leave until she swarms. Do you want to make her go out and come back because you are having trouble locating her?

    Absconding is a somewhat currently popular discussion topic these days. Something historically one never heard about in bees kept in America before the arrival of AHB and before the effects of CCD. I am always suspicious that something differtent actually happened when someone says their colony absconded. They probably dwindled in population over a period of time and died.

    You mentioned that you suspected absconding due to overwhelming SHB numbers. Not being there and seeing what you saw, I would suspect the opposite. That the colony went queenless and the SHB got a foothold to take advantage of a weakened colony. The combination of queenlessness and SHB did the colony in.

    What did the hive components look like? How many frames were damaged by the SHB? How many frames of honey were there? Or was there no honey? Was there any honey comb which appeared to have been emptied by the bees prior to absconding? Absconding bees need what swarming bees need. Honey to turn into wax to build comb.

    Thanks for a Reply if you have time.
     
  6. Iddee

    Iddee New Member

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    He is asking how to get the queen out with a trap out. A trap out this time of year won't raise and mate a queen, so he wants to make the house queen abscond into the trap box.
     
  7. sqkcrk

    sqkcrk New Member

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    Oh, okay. Abscond out into the trap box? I guess I'm not up on trapout terminology.

    What about the SHB infested colony?
     
  8. PerryBee

    PerryBee New Member

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    I thought I remembered this topic coming up not long ago. :confused:
    It seemed to me that Walter Kelly Co. was selling a swarm trap. I backtracked and found that it was made by Cleo C. Hogan (google). His approach is a box he designed that essentially places another chamber through which bees can initially come and go, over the trap-out entrance (instead of a cone).
    After several days an open frame of brood without bees is placed in this chamber, drawing out the nurse bees, attendants, etc. as well as the queen. He claims that he has found queens in this chamber within the first 24 hours. He agrees that queens will not go through cones, but view this additional chamber as simply another place to lay eggs. After carefully checking the chamber and finding the queen in it, I assume the "tube" or "tunnel" is swapped out for a cone, allowing remaining bees and hatching brood to leave but not return to the original site (tree).
    He believes that this system is effective in luring out queens in trap-out situations.
     
  9. sqkcrk

    sqkcrk New Member

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    You beat me to it Perry. While taking my shower (why do we call it "taking a shower"? where do we take it to?) I recalled pretty much what Perry refered to. A friend of mine did just that last summer and it worked real well and surprisingly quick.

    Locate the hole which the bees are using as an entrance. Attatch a nuc sized box to the wall w/ a tube going into the wall and into the nuc w/ a hole in the nuc opposite the tube, so bees have to travel threw the nuc box to get to the wall hive.

    Check the box after a cpl weeks and see what they are doing, how things are progressing.

    Have fun. Report your experience please.
     
  10. 2kooldad

    2kooldad New Member

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    '' I-Phone ''.....ROTFLMBO !!!!!!! if i could afford an I-Phone id be doing this using the internet....naw man this is a ''PB-Phone'' (pain in the butt-Phone) let me try an use actuall sentence structure (bust me on my spelling an yer pushen it...lol)

    Yes, Iddee is correct. I am looking for a way to get the queen off the comb on a trapout. I am wanting to get a new colony instead of making one i have bigger. If i have a colony at full strength an a trapout to do, or the choice to split the full strength colony into 2 smaller hives i have to wait on to get strong again, i'd rather get the queen with the trapout an only wait on that one to get strong. Why go backwards if you don't have to?

    The colony that i had absconded. It was a cutout and i took comb from the feral hive home in frames. 3 days later i checked on them in the morning (front door check to see they were there) and when i came home from work they were gone. There was honey in the comb and also a writhing mass of SHB larva. Looked like Madusa's hair. Since i did not get all of the bees during the cutout im going to assume that their weak state did not let them fend off the SHB and they decided to leave. Just my opinion though.

    Thats as close to correct sentence structure an puctuation as i get. (for those of you wondering in amazment at the lack of dots....<---see i did write this. )
     
  11. sqkcrk

    sqkcrk New Member

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    Well, it wasn't my intent to critisize your....sentence structure.... I've just never seen anyone communicate w/ all those dots.

    As to the colony that absconded, I have that same thing happen when I collect swarms. Perhaps the queen wasn't collected along w/ the rest of the bees? I'm impressed that SHB came on so quickly. It doesn't seem like there would be enuf time to go from egg to writhiung mass of SHB larva, but that was your experience. So what can I say, 'cept interesting. I didn't know that could happen.

    I'm still confused. You haven't seen the queen in the trapout yet, right? So you want to get her to come out on her own, enticed out I guess? Seems like if you aren't going to open the wall and remove everything you'll have to be patient.

    Wish I was there to see things first hand. Maybe I would understand better and be of more use.

    Best of luck.
     
  12. tecumseh

    tecumseh New Member

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    mark writes:
    I'm impressed that SHB came on so quickly. It doesn't seem like there would be enuf time to go from egg to writhiung mass of SHB larva, but that was your experience.

    tecumseh:
    them is good and hardy southern small hive beetles and not them wimpy yankee small hive beetles like they might have in New York.

    ps... with damaged comb I suspect it sucks shb in from miles around.
     
  13. sqkcrk

    sqkcrk New Member

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    I import my SHB from South Carolina. The State where they were first noticed. So they ain't wimps. But, maybe like so many Southerners, they hate to go North. :) So they keep a low profile when they get here.
     
  14. 2kooldad

    2kooldad New Member

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    lmbo....these here florida SHB larva can snatch a sparrow out of mid air if they get to close....i was told 3-7 days for the larva to hatch...i belive i did the cutout on a thursday night....took em home friday an on monday afternoon they were gone...it is what it is....unless i need the comb for some reason (eggs for a queen or i can keep it in really good shape) i think i'll just mash an melt it....i can feed the honey right back to them an the wax can help out later coating frames an stuff...i did have the queen...a big fat blonde one....sighhhhh

    Im just haven fun at the grammer stuff....my keyboard is 1/2 the size of a buisness card...one thumb covers 4 keys an every symbol besides the period an apostropy takes a shift key to make....i can write correctly if i want to...its just a pain....i cant spell to save my life...my mother (a retired 12th grade english teacher) just rolls her eyes at me (snicker)

    On trapouts...i made a flaw in my statement....money is always good....so doing a trapout without the queen is not pointless....i am always wanting more hives....so i want the queen....an im trying to better the odds of that happening since they arent very good to begin with.
     
  15. PerryBee

    PerryBee New Member

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    "On trapouts...i made a flaw in my statement....money is always good....so doing a trapout without the queen is not pointless....i am always wanting more hives....so i want the queen....an im trying to better the odds of that happening since they arent very good to begin with."

    Persitence, my good man, has solved more problems than plain ole luck anytime. :thumbsup: Keep at what you're doing. :D
     
  16. sqkcrk

    sqkcrk New Member

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    As is true in life in general, and to steal a slogan from Nike, "Just Do It". You'll learn something and something will get done. I keep having to tell myself that too often.
     
  17. 2kooldad

    2kooldad New Member

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    well i am going to keep at it.....you guys and another ''anonumus'' beek have given me a clue....an some plans....MUAH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH....the notorious Dr. Frankindad will piece it together....is little green square headed bees with nails in their neck a good or bad thing....hmmmmmm
     
  18. 2kooldad

    2kooldad New Member

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    :Dancing: Oh this is dandy. i just got done downloading and reading the plans that got emailed to me via the anonymus [spelling] beek. These are the very plans yall spoke of. These plans are easy to build and soooooo gonna trick the Queen. i can just see it working as we speak/type :drinks:
     
  19. riverrat

    riverrat New Member

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    if the queen is drawn out of the original hive and into the waiting box. What is keeping the original hive from building emergency queen cells once the queen is no longer producing pheromones in that hive. I am thinking that hive would end up with an unmated queen or a queen that leaves and once returning from its mating flight could not reenter the hive. If this would be the case I would consider removing the original bait hive and replacing with another box with a frame of brood hoping to create a 2nd hive from the original hives genetics.
     
  20. 2kooldad

    2kooldad New Member

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    After reading the information about the trap and the original builders useage an looking at the hardware the trap can be used in two ways:

    First there are 3 parts...the box at the tree, the box from the tree to the trap box an then the hive/trapbox...the middle one is the important one....it is open on both ends an pretty large (compared to a hive entrance) an has a small funnel built into the side of it...by leaving both ends open all bees can move freely between the hive an the trap box....by putting a piece of plywood over the trapbox end of the middle tube the bees can only go into the trapbox an not back to the feral hive.

    The aurthor claims that he uses it to harvest 2 or 3 colonys a year an still keep the feral hive going....kinda like a dairy cow...lol....capping the tube lets him control what he wants the bees to do...stay or come an go....useing the front entrance of the trapbox makes the trapbox part of the hive....im not explaining everything cause it would take to long on this phone but thats the basics....soooooo....ima build it an see if it works....an if it does....yeee hawww....if it dont then we know it dont or i did something wrong....no need for bait in the box (lemongrass oil/swarm lures) except built comb an a frame of uncapped brood comb....i think i know a hive i can use it on....if i cant find one i can always try it on one of my hives as a tester....princible is the same right :/