both can not be true

Discussion in 'General Beekeeping' started by the kid, Dec 13, 2009.

  1. the kid

    the kid New Member

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    In reading about our adiction ( bees ),, I have found some claims that can not be true ,, like they say in the online site for Bee culture magazine then click on ,, current issue ,,then on ,, Wintering Beehives, Parts I & II
    now in the Wintering Beehives ,, they say """" If baby bees are present, the nursery area will be kept at around 90-95°F while bees making up the outer layer will be nearer 40°F. If no developing bees are present, the center of the cluster will be around 70°F. """ now remember this part "" while bees making up the outer layer will be nearer 40°F. ""

    now we go to ( google ) "" Honey Bees and Agricultural Sprays. Eric C. Mussen, "" and it says """ when air temperatures drop below 54°F. they cannot retain enough warmth to fly. At 50°F. , a honey bee eventually will fall into a cold comatose condition and die.

    now if At 50°F. , a honey bee eventually will fall into a cold comatose condition and die.
    how can bees making up the outer layer of the cluster be nearer 40°F. ""
    This is not the first place that I have seen both of these statements
    what one is true ??????
     
  2. tecumseh

    tecumseh New Member

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    I think perhaps what you are missing (mis labeling) is that one comment is about an individual bee and the other is in regards to bees in a cluster. The bees (collectively.. and yes brother the bees are ALL die hard communist) at the outer edge of the cluster are not attempting to fly and those that do so or remain on the outer edger of the cluster too long will most certainly die.

    lastly these comments are 'generally true' (ie not absolute) in nature and you could find individual hives or bees where this rule would not apply in certain instances.
     

  3. Iddee

    Iddee New Member

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    >>>>now if At 50°F. , a honey bee eventually will fall into a cold comatose condition and die.
    how can bees making up the outer layer of the cluster be nearer 40°F. ""<<<<

    eventually is your magic word. Bees will fly in the 45F range many times. The flights may well be short ones.

    Also, the outer bees in the cluster is constantly moving, and exchanging places with the inner bees. They do not stay on the outer layer for long.

    I have also read that a human will freeze and die at -20F. That doesn't mean we cannot go out into colder air than that. We just cannot stay out in it long enough for our bodies to get down to the same temp. Same with the bees.
     
  4. brooksbeefarm

    brooksbeefarm New Member

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    My post on this fourm (A Mystery) where i was putting the over turned hive back together. Well the temp. was 41 deg., i wish someone would have told that bee that stung me on the neck that he wasn't supposed to fly at that temp. and there was others coming out of the front entrance to fly up and say how do you do the hard way :shock: . I was lucky i only got hit once. (no gloves or veil) No Fair, they don't read the rules. :mrgreen: Jack
     
  5. alleyyooper

    alleyyooper New Member

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    Ya wish I had the picture still of the bees lined up on the landing board at 17F aqnd sunny flying hither an youn turning the snow speckled with bee poop. Ya some didn't make it back but most did.

    Can't just move a bee hive a few hundred feet, they will get lost when they fly out to forage and return to the old site.

    POPPY COCK

    They may indeed visit the old site but with their secne of smell and the jusuling around they know enough to reset the GPS.

    :D Al
     
  6. G3farms

    G3farms New Member

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    It was in the mid to upper 30's all day yesterday. A friend of mine was given a hive and knows nothing about bees. Well he had the bright idea that he was going to bring it over to me (I knew nothing of it), he called later that afternoon and said the bees came out in force. After talking to him he said it had seven supers stacked on top of it and was too heavy to move. All I could do is laugh at him and told him to call when the weather breaks and we would go get them. You would just have to know this fella, he is a mess.

    G3
     
  7. brooksbeefarm

    brooksbeefarm New Member

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    G3farms, he's probably more of a mess now and alot smarter. :mrgreen: Jack
     
  8. G3farms

    G3farms New Member

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    HAHA he was wanting to get into keeping bees but has already changed his mind, so yeah a little smarter (not really beek material).
    No way he could ever be a bigger mess. :lol: :lol:

    G3
     
  9. sqkcrk

    sqkcrk New Member

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    I agree w/ tec's comments. Temp quotes are generalizations. And I always heard that it was 45 degrees BODY TEMP at which individual bees lost muscle control and fell to the ground to die.

    I'm not sure about what the body temperature of bees on the outside of the cluster is, but obviously it is warm enough for them to survive. Compare your core temp, which should be about 98.6, I believe, to the temperature of your skin. Quite a difference I'll bet.
     
  10. brooksbeefarm

    brooksbeefarm New Member

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    I agree with Tec. also but i'm sure the one that nailed me came from inside the cluster because he was flying fast and ment buisness. The ones still on the landing board must of been on the outside of the cluster but i could tell they had the same thing on their mind. :mrgreen: Jack
     
  11. the kid

    the kid New Member

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    I just think its funny how they say one thing then turn around and say something
    a 180 from what they just said... I have been reading about a lot of research on bees
    and find they do that a lot ... and from one to the next its like there looking at different
    things , like one looks at bees and the other is looking at some other bug ,,,
    I under stand now ,,how it comes to ask 10 beekeepers ,get 12 answers ..


    '''Well he had the bright idea that he was going to bring it over to me """"""""""

    he had guts to try to move them on his own,, you have to give him that anyway .
     
  12. tecumseh

    tecumseh New Member

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    there are a lot of excellent thoughts present here ...

    I like this one (totally unrelated to the topic at hand, but what the heck)..
    the kid writes..
    'he had guts to try to move them on his own,, you have to give him that anyway .'

    tecumseh thinks..
    you have to give the fellow at least a B for effort and when the task was evidently too much for one person he called for back up. at least the fellow was smart enough that when he recognized that Plan A was not going to work he change directions (mentally) and went for Plan B. perhaps he will make a beekeeper yet?

    back to subject (well kind of):
    at least from an academic (book wise) stand point, often times a writer's point of view can flip back and forth without the writer specifying that he has done so. I (and somewhat related to my background in economic and finance) usually look at things first from a micro and then from a macro point of view. sometimes the two lenses of perception will produce the same image, but often times it will not.
     
  13. barry42001

    barry42001 New Member

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    As previously stated--bees can and do move about at temps 50 degrees and lower but for very short durations, or unless provoked to commit suicide by a serious disturbance. Bees in winter cluster --the interior of the cluster will maintain a brood rearing temp of 90 - 92 degrees, of course tyhis created by the constant vibration of wing muscles, bees on the outside of this cluster to maintain a suriviable body temp will rotate from the exterior of the cluster towards the interior of the cluster, of course still vibrating wing muscles--While I have never seen the interior of a winter cluster, I certianly jhave listened toa wintering hive--the hum of the cluster is more a distinctive sound then one that is simply busy--perhaps more like one that is condensing nectar to honey, all those workers fanning the open cells to promote evaporation. and of course they are generating heat as well which additionally aids in evaporation, and is remloved by the very fanning.
    Barry :drinks:
     
  14. alleyyooper

    alleyyooper New Member

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    he was flying fast and ment buisness.

    I don't under stand? He nailed you like in he nailed her?

    :mrgreen: Al
     
  15. G3farms

    G3farms New Member

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    :rolling: :rolling: :rotfl:

    just a little typo!

    G3
     
  16. brooksbeefarm

    brooksbeefarm New Member

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    Okay, Okay, SHE nail me for fooling with her nest. :mrgreen: Jack
     
  17. Bens-Bees

    Bens-Bees New Member

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    Well both can be true actually. A bee in cluster is not the same as a bee in flight. The bee in cluster has greatly lowered it's metabolic rate, but also, the bee in cluster, isn't flying... and while a bee has to get it's flight muscles up to 85°F to fly which means outside air temps should be at least 55°F for prolonged flights, or the bee will have to make short flights where it won't cool down below 85°F prior to returning to the warmth of the hive (such as a cleansing flight, or the short flight a guard bee might make to defend the hive against an intruder); a bee does not need to be 85°F to walk around inside the hive however. The only reason a foraging bee would go into a comatose state and die with colder temps. is because it used up all it's stored energy shivering to try and warm up enough to fly to wherever it's going.