Can 2 queens b in same hive seperated by excluder?

Discussion in 'Beekeeping 101' started by Yankee11, Jul 4, 2013.

  1. Yankee11

    Yankee11 New Member

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    Checked a hive real quick today. this have is 2 deeps and 3 supers on top, I was checking the top super and when I got to the 7th frame I found capped brood. Then i saw a queen waling around. was in this have about 3 weeks ago I found a queen in the top deep. So i put the excluder on and put the 3 mediums back on top. I was shocked to see a queen in the top medium. I have not opened brood box since I put the excluder on the deeps. I put the queen and the frame of larva in a nuke for now. I went into the deeps looking for the other queen. i didn't see her. but i saw tiny brood, eggs and capped larva. I also saw one supercedure cell on one of the deep frames. Since I saw tiny larva and eggs, I put the frame with supercedure cell in a seperate nuc. How did she get to the top suoer and can there be 2 queens in the same hive separated that far apart? I have a hive sitting right next to it that had a queen hatch out about 2 weeks ago. Could she have flown back into the wrong hive?All my hives upper entrances. I removed both the queen and queen cell to see if they draw out any more queen cells.
     
  2. efmesch

    efmesch Active Member

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    Short answer to your question: "Yes".
    Expanded answer: an excluder can enable two queens to cooexist in one hive. If they are in two adjacent boxes, a double excluder is even better. Supers of honey can serve as an alternative for an excluder, so having two supers between the queens could be more than adequate to enable them to work "together" in one hive.
    Queens returning from mating flights don't usually enter the wrong hive, but it can happen.
    I would suggest that you check the second hive to make sure that it too has a queen and eliminate your worries about her possibly having gone astray.
     

  3. pistolpete

    pistolpete New Member

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    My mentor insists that when queens get superceded, they often co-exist with their daughter queen for some time. I don't think he has much evidence to back that up, except maybe seeing it happen once or twice. operating 2 queen hives is popular in the canadian prairies where short but very rich flows are common.
     
  4. Americasbeekeeper

    Americasbeekeeper New Member

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    So ften we see the first queen and stop looking. I have even found two queens laying on the same frame. Twice in queen rearing there was the downstairs queen and one over the excluder that wiped out all the queen cells.
     
  5. PerryBee

    PerryBee New Member

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    My experience is the same as both Gary and pistolpete. I have found 2 queens a few times, but likely there have been more, I just stopped looking.
     
  6. afterburn001

    afterburn001 New Member

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    I've had this happen. I had a queen get in to a super above the excludeder (my fault) and the bees made a new queen below. I didn't complain though, I ended up with two queens! :D
     
  7. Yankee11

    Yankee11 New Member

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    Could this have happened.

    The older queen was laying in the bottom of the 3 honey supers before the excluder. I found her in the brood box one day and thats when I added the excluder. Figured the brood would all hatch and they would back fill with honey.

    Could they have raised a queen after the excluder was added, then she went out and back in through the top entrance?
     
  8. Yankee11

    Yankee11 New Member

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    Sorry afterburn, just saw your post.

    I bet this is what happened just opposite
     
  9. efmesch

    efmesch Active Member

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    Another short answer to your newer question: Yes. Definitely
     
  10. Yankee11

    Yankee11 New Member

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    Well, what a treat.

    This is one of my favorite hives. I moved the new queen and the frame of brood and bees she was on to a nuc.I will need to get some resources this afternoon.
     
  11. ApisBees

    ApisBees Active Member

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    Watch that the original queen is not failing. A superseded queen coexist with her daughter in a lot of cases. you don't want to be harming the bees work they have been doing to replace a queen they deem to be failing by taking away the queens and cells they are raising to use to replace her. Trust the bees, They have been doing this a lot longer than any of us.
    Was there a queen in the honey super when the queen excluder was installed? You need to do a little math, how old is the brood in the top supers? Emerging 21 days, just caped 9 days, eggs small larva 4 days. Add the time it would take for the bees to raise a queen from a young larva till she is laying, 23 days min, up to 28. calculate when the queen would have been laying in the honey super and compare the timing with the instillation of the queen excluder. Was she in the honey super before you placed the excluder on?

    If the answer is yes, the bees may be tying to supersede the old queen. You may of inadvertently separated their new queen from the brood nest and when the bees tried to replace her the second time you have removed their supersedure cell.
    Keep a look out for this colony to be able to replace the queen if needed, or if they build more supersedure cells let the bees work it out for themselves.
     
  12. blueblood

    blueblood New Member

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    That happened to me earlier this season. I just went through the mediums and pulled the second queen and put her back in the deeps. It is my hot hive and I avoid cracking them open unless it's just after winter. If there was a fight, It didn't stop my hive from moving forward. I have five nearly full supers on it now.
     
  13. Yankee11

    Yankee11 New Member

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    Probably about 4 weeks ago
    There was lots of brood in the first honey super. I found the queen in the top deep. Thats when I added the excluder and trapped her in the deeps. There was no brood in the middle or top honey super at the time.

    I saw tiny larva and eggs yesterday down in the deeps. I only removed the 1 capped cell to see if they would draw more.
    The capped cell in in a mating nuc. I will keep a close eye on them over the next week and see what they do now. They have eggs to draw more cells if they need to.

    The queen I found in the very top super on the one frame of brood is in a nuc box with 2 empty drawn comb frames and 2 frames of honey.
     
  14. efmesch

    efmesch Active Member

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    Why does it have to be that so often, the best producing hives are the most aggressive? :mrgreen: