cedar oil spray
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I can tell you too many stories of how fogging is the worst thing you can do with most insects let alone roaches. That's what sent me on my search about three years ago to find non-toxic products that were effective and usable in commercial/residential situations. Not an easy combination to solve, let me tell you.
After working with the cedar oil now for about a year in various locations, restaurants, warehouses, homes, public housing, etc... I have found it to be my primary product in most cases. Not all cases obviously but I'd say at least 80%.
The more I see it work in those cases and having done the experiments this summer on spraying bees with it directly and spraying near or on parts of the hives, I am seeing positive results, though not conclusive yet.
It will take me at least another year or two to be be satisfied that it can be what Ihope it can be around bees.
After working with the cedar oil now for about a year in various locations, restaurants, warehouses, homes, public housing, etc... I have found it to be my primary product in most cases. Not all cases obviously but I'd say at least 80%.
The more I see it work in those cases and having done the experiments this summer on spraying bees with it directly and spraying near or on parts of the hives, I am seeing positive results, though not conclusive yet.
It will take me at least another year or two to be be satisfied that it can be what Ihope it can be around bees.
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Does this need to be Eastern Red Cedar?
I know of people building hives with it, but as far as cedar oil is concerned, the only one given credit as having a high enough level of Cedrol in it is the Southwest Juniper found in Texas, and other south-western states and down into Mexico.
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"Kills and repel nearly all insects...Nature's Defender is an all natural and organic pesticide that affects insects in multiple ways. It works as a contact kill, a repellent, an ovicide (kills eggs and larvae) and as a pheromone disruptor."...."
I think you already have an answer of what it will do to brood -- "an ovicide (kills eggs and larvae)"
Many insecticides are not designed to kill instantly as this one is described to do. They are brought back to the colony to kill the whole superorganism.
Even if it does not harm bees, most of us sell or give our honey to family. There are many products that do not kill bees that should not be in food or the kitchen period. My hives are food factories.
I think you already have an answer of what it will do to brood -- "an ovicide (kills eggs and larvae)"
Many insecticides are not designed to kill instantly as this one is described to do. They are brought back to the colony to kill the whole superorganism.
Even if it does not harm bees, most of us sell or give our honey to family. There are many products that do not kill bees that should not be in food or the kitchen period. My hives are food factories.
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"and as a pheromone disruptor" even disrupting communication in a superorganism (hive) can be enough to kill in stressful times, like over winter.
I am with Big Bear on this one. I think he has presented this thought very well. Making it clear several times that this is a product that is being looked at. and will continue to be looked at for some time now. I see this thread as nothing more than a heads up at what might be coming.
Had Edison known much about any branch of science that involved the making of the light bulb. He woudl have never tried to make it. He would have known to well that it could not be done.
Had Edison known much about any branch of science that involved the making of the light bulb. He woudl have never tried to make it. He would have known to well that it could not be done.
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Bringing the start of the tread back into focused, the claims of using the product and its effectiveness. With fellow members jumping on the wagon wanting to get the product and started using the product to cure all their hive problems. It causes others to ask questions and be skeptical and caucuses.
First no product should be used in a hive unless approved by the food inspection branch. Even if the product is safe for human consumption if it shows up in honey and it is not approved substance to be in honey, THE HONEY IS CONTAMINATED.
Lots of people have allergy's to woods and ceder is one of the worst. We Don't want the oil to get into the honey? So if your spraying in or on the hive the honey should be tested before being sold.
To state that you are seeing what and if ceder oil has any effect on SHB is fine but to post results you need to have test groups, control groups and strict test procedures to know if it is the spray that is effecting the SHB or is it natural, weather related, life cycle or seasonal.
good luck with your testing or pass your ideas for ceder oil for SHB to a university where they can sacrifice bees in the development of treatments where they have the time and resources to determine the effectiveness of the product and treatment. If there is any bad effects and whether it effects the products of the hive. And if and when it is proven effective they can lobby the food and drug to allow it to be used in the hive.
Just my opinion apisbees
First no product should be used in a hive unless approved by the food inspection branch. Even if the product is safe for human consumption if it shows up in honey and it is not approved substance to be in honey, THE HONEY IS CONTAMINATED.
Lots of people have allergy's to woods and ceder is one of the worst. We Don't want the oil to get into the honey? So if your spraying in or on the hive the honey should be tested before being sold.
To state that you are seeing what and if ceder oil has any effect on SHB is fine but to post results you need to have test groups, control groups and strict test procedures to know if it is the spray that is effecting the SHB or is it natural, weather related, life cycle or seasonal.
good luck with your testing or pass your ideas for ceder oil for SHB to a university where they can sacrifice bees in the development of treatments where they have the time and resources to determine the effectiveness of the product and treatment. If there is any bad effects and whether it effects the products of the hive. And if and when it is proven effective they can lobby the food and drug to allow it to be used in the hive.
Just my opinion apisbees
wow, you have just described all the good reasons for testing something out before telling people it's a good to go and truly effective treatment as I have been saying here.
At no time did I ever mention putting it on hives producing honey. I don't produce honey for sale or otherwise. I don't work hives for the purpose of increasing honey production.
Thanks for assuming no one but you understands the scientific method. Apparently only corporate or university backed (read corporate) researchers can be "scientists". No wait, beekeepers have been making scientific discoveries for hundreds of years without university labs and corporate money. Yes, Average, honest and curious people can be scientists too.
One last time, I, myself, in my bees yards, on my bees, am and will be testing my ideas and hypotheses using the scientific method. Heaven forbid I should want to discuss this process with other beekeepers.
If you would like to ask me questions about what I am doing, please do. if you want to make a helpful suggestion to add to the discussion, please do.
if you want to be contrary or argumentative or make assumptions about people, It's really not necessary. thanks anyway.
At no time did I ever mention putting it on hives producing honey. I don't produce honey for sale or otherwise. I don't work hives for the purpose of increasing honey production.
Thanks for assuming no one but you understands the scientific method. Apparently only corporate or university backed (read corporate) researchers can be "scientists". No wait, beekeepers have been making scientific discoveries for hundreds of years without university labs and corporate money. Yes, Average, honest and curious people can be scientists too.
One last time, I, myself, in my bees yards, on my bees, am and will be testing my ideas and hypotheses using the scientific method. Heaven forbid I should want to discuss this process with other beekeepers.
If you would like to ask me questions about what I am doing, please do. if you want to make a helpful suggestion to add to the discussion, please do.
if you want to be contrary or argumentative or make assumptions about people, It's really not necessary. thanks anyway.
Apisbees, I understand and agree that if others assume this is something to get and use that comments to discourage that are in line. I don't think Big Bear has said anything that should be taken as an encouragement to make that assumption. I think the correction or warning should remain directed at those that need to be corrected or warned and Big Bear is not in that category. In fact I would really like to help Big Bear out but I simply don't have enough hives that I can afford to put one at risk. I am not sure that one more hive is going to be a lot of help anyway.
I do see the criticisms as a valuable source for making a list of things to be looked at. Hopefully information can be gathered to address those concerns directly.
I also support a couple of the comments. One I would not advise anyone to add any sort of treatment to a hive with honey that is to be sold. not even a powdered sugar dusting.
Second what is the less obvious if any, long term effects of cedar oil on the bees. queen. brood etc of the hive. And it seems clear to me Big Bear is in the process of observing that very thing.
At some point it is necessary to recognize that Nay Sayers do in fact exist and no level of evidence will prevent that. There is a line that is reasonable evidence and the rest just need to be left with there concerns. So no not every doubt needs to be erased. Reasonable assurance does need to be achieved.
I do see the criticisms as a valuable source for making a list of things to be looked at. Hopefully information can be gathered to address those concerns directly.
I also support a couple of the comments. One I would not advise anyone to add any sort of treatment to a hive with honey that is to be sold. not even a powdered sugar dusting.
Second what is the less obvious if any, long term effects of cedar oil on the bees. queen. brood etc of the hive. And it seems clear to me Big Bear is in the process of observing that very thing.
At some point it is necessary to recognize that Nay Sayers do in fact exist and no level of evidence will prevent that. There is a line that is reasonable evidence and the rest just need to be left with there concerns. So no not every doubt needs to be erased. Reasonable assurance does need to be achieved.
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Big Bear and Daniel Y
Sorry you took it as criticism, as the tread progressed the first posts were looking for product to use, a little further on their were suggestions to spray it on bees brood followed by the debate of how or if the product effect bees and brood.
This is a public forum with open discussions that anyone with an internet connection can access, so I seen the need to post that trying any new products in or on the hive, bees should be done with extreme caution.
I'm not at all against research whether being done by beekeepers or university's In my Opinion joint research between public school and private individuals gives the findings more legitimacy. Even if the results are the same. It give an objective analysis of the results and how the study is conducted. Doing the research in partner ship with researchers would speed the process. They have access to labs and equipment for testing and analyses. The results would be more readily accepted if required for approval from food and drug. If submitted independently the food and drug would most likely want new testing. There are lots of products that have shown to be bennifishal to bees and the hive but have never been approved for use in the hive because of other health and safety concerns.
This forum has a high percentage of new beekeepers that should be aware that using unsanctioned products in the hive could lead to adulterated honey. How many times over the years has honey been in the news because of contamination. We complain about imported honey being contaminated, so caution should be used when applying anything to the hive.
Sorry for kicking the beehive Iddee
Sorry you took it as criticism, as the tread progressed the first posts were looking for product to use, a little further on their were suggestions to spray it on bees brood followed by the debate of how or if the product effect bees and brood.
This is a public forum with open discussions that anyone with an internet connection can access, so I seen the need to post that trying any new products in or on the hive, bees should be done with extreme caution.
I'm not at all against research whether being done by beekeepers or university's In my Opinion joint research between public school and private individuals gives the findings more legitimacy. Even if the results are the same. It give an objective analysis of the results and how the study is conducted. Doing the research in partner ship with researchers would speed the process. They have access to labs and equipment for testing and analyses. The results would be more readily accepted if required for approval from food and drug. If submitted independently the food and drug would most likely want new testing. There are lots of products that have shown to be bennifishal to bees and the hive but have never been approved for use in the hive because of other health and safety concerns.
This forum has a high percentage of new beekeepers that should be aware that using unsanctioned products in the hive could lead to adulterated honey. How many times over the years has honey been in the news because of contamination. We complain about imported honey being contaminated, so caution should be used when applying anything to the hive.
Sorry for kicking the beehive Iddee
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Bravo for the effort, but I'm still a big fan of olive oil on the sticky board and in traps, and powdered sugar for varroa on bees, larva, in cells. . At least for now. Now for treating UNDER the hives, (for ants) I am a big fan of beneficial nematodes, and when they fail (usually about mid-july when the moisture level in the ground isn't high enough to support them), Amdro type products for ants. UNDER the pondliner I put under my hives. I don't want any product tracked in by bees.
Apisbees. no offense taken and I don't consider it criticism. I consider it miss aimed correction.
In fact in the hive wrapping as a form of IPM thread I made the very small objection for the very same reasons toward Big Bear. In that case I do think Big Bear was making claims and making suggestions to use hive wraps as a means of controlling mites. As far as I know hive wraps have never been determined to harm mites. In that case new beekeepers as well as old are actually being told that something works and I question it's reliability. This means people that try it are believing what they where directly told.
It may be a small distinction but I see it as an important one that this is not what Big Bear is saying in this thread. He has not said anyone else should spray bees or brood with it. He even says he is reluctant to spray comb with it.
I went back to read the exact comments but will confess I do not have them memorize ver batum.
Big bears says he is looking onto cedar oil as a treatment. He also claims to have sprayed bees and ants at the same time. at most he then claims "No harm to the bees" possibly a bit optimistic given that long term harm may be been caused. but still I believe an honest if not well phrased observation on his part. not necessarily a hard cold fact. So okay this is casual conversation and not a medical conference. Anyone deserves that much slack.
The conversation goes on and the issue of direct application to brood comes up. Big Bear indicates his own reluctance on this issue. a clear indication that not everything is known about this stuff, he even eventually mentions his blog where he is tracking his findings and at one point outright says that it will be a while before it is known to be safe for bees. even though the manufacturer claims it specifically does not harm bees.
Now I am not sure just how a new beekeeper or anyone else is going to get past all that and still read that big Bear is recommending this as a treatment that works and is safe right now today. I am certain it will happen. But that is no fault of Big Bears. If anything that new person needs to hone their information gathering skills and read more than the first three sentences of a conversation before running off to the hive to try something out. If an experienced beekeeper chooses to try it. I can only hope that they understand they are engaging in unknown treatments are are prepared to accept the worst. again not something Big Bear is in control of.
Can people misunderstand? of course. and they will and there is no way to prevent that. I can ask a group of people to kneel down and tie their right shoe and untie their left. and somebody is going to get confused and not understand before it is over. people will end up with both shoes tied or both shoe untied and some will wonder how they are supposed to walk with their shoes tied together like that. It is how humans are. it is why bad things happen and we make mistakes. Some people simply have no ability to follow directions. some people can follow directions and don't think they really have to follow them well. Some people have no idea there where any directions. so you have the guy standing in back wondering what everyone is doing with their shoes.
here is the only perfect set of direction I know in existence. the directions no one is capable of not following.
In fact in the hive wrapping as a form of IPM thread I made the very small objection for the very same reasons toward Big Bear. In that case I do think Big Bear was making claims and making suggestions to use hive wraps as a means of controlling mites. As far as I know hive wraps have never been determined to harm mites. In that case new beekeepers as well as old are actually being told that something works and I question it's reliability. This means people that try it are believing what they where directly told.
It may be a small distinction but I see it as an important one that this is not what Big Bear is saying in this thread. He has not said anyone else should spray bees or brood with it. He even says he is reluctant to spray comb with it.
I went back to read the exact comments but will confess I do not have them memorize ver batum.
Big bears says he is looking onto cedar oil as a treatment. He also claims to have sprayed bees and ants at the same time. at most he then claims "No harm to the bees" possibly a bit optimistic given that long term harm may be been caused. but still I believe an honest if not well phrased observation on his part. not necessarily a hard cold fact. So okay this is casual conversation and not a medical conference. Anyone deserves that much slack.
The conversation goes on and the issue of direct application to brood comes up. Big Bear indicates his own reluctance on this issue. a clear indication that not everything is known about this stuff, he even eventually mentions his blog where he is tracking his findings and at one point outright says that it will be a while before it is known to be safe for bees. even though the manufacturer claims it specifically does not harm bees.
Now I am not sure just how a new beekeeper or anyone else is going to get past all that and still read that big Bear is recommending this as a treatment that works and is safe right now today. I am certain it will happen. But that is no fault of Big Bears. If anything that new person needs to hone their information gathering skills and read more than the first three sentences of a conversation before running off to the hive to try something out. If an experienced beekeeper chooses to try it. I can only hope that they understand they are engaging in unknown treatments are are prepared to accept the worst. again not something Big Bear is in control of.
Can people misunderstand? of course. and they will and there is no way to prevent that. I can ask a group of people to kneel down and tie their right shoe and untie their left. and somebody is going to get confused and not understand before it is over. people will end up with both shoes tied or both shoe untied and some will wonder how they are supposed to walk with their shoes tied together like that. It is how humans are. it is why bad things happen and we make mistakes. Some people simply have no ability to follow directions. some people can follow directions and don't think they really have to follow them well. Some people have no idea there where any directions. so you have the guy standing in back wondering what everyone is doing with their shoes.
here is the only perfect set of direction I know in existence. the directions no one is capable of not following.
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I'm not sold. I'm with OOmie. If it's killing the other critters, it's killing the bees. It just might be taking longer because they're bigger. Stick with traps for SHBs--it's safer. Ants can be foiled by putting hive legs/stand in containers with water/oil.
"If it's killing the other critters, it's killing the bees"
How can Oxalic Acid be explained if this is true? Any mite treatment for that matter. How would Cedar Oil if shown to not harm bees be any different than mite away or Thymol?
There seems to be many things that the bees are resistant to that will kill the other insects.
I like traps to monitor beetle levels, But would welcome anything that causes them to leave or die rather than just trapping to control them.
How can Oxalic Acid be explained if this is true? Any mite treatment for that matter. How would Cedar Oil if shown to not harm bees be any different than mite away or Thymol?
There seems to be many things that the bees are resistant to that will kill the other insects.
I like traps to monitor beetle levels, But would welcome anything that causes them to leave or die rather than just trapping to control them.
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