[Big Bear]

Daniel Y, you are correct. not only ichemical reaction but in other areas as well.

for example, temps above 115 often kill many other insects, but not bees. it has been experimented with many times heating bees up to eliminate mites with success.

The opposite is true. Bees have been put into severe cold temps that have killed other insects, but not bees.

This is because like humans, insects are not all like.

This is why testing is done, to determine the effects of a treatment to see the effects against bees and other insects.

We talk about "long term results" but every study has to start somewhere. to not try simply because it doesn't give all the answers immediately is totally opposite human experience.

I never came in here telling everyone to start using cedar oil. I said I was testing cedar oil and sharing my results here.

Two very different things.

So many things can happen in using something to treat in a bee nest.

the amount may be too much or not enough. The method of application may not be appropriate, Then you also have timing issues. how long does it take being present in what amount before it shows effect? How long does the effect last? How far apart do treatments need to be.

none of these questions are resolved immediately. It takes time to chase them all down.

forgive me for attempting to share a discussion of trying something new that could maybe help beekeepers hives.

 

[CarrollwoodBees]

"If it's killing the other critters, it's killing the bees"

How can Oxalic Acid be explained if this is true? Any mite treatment for that matter. How would Cedar Oil if shown to not harm bees be any different than mite away or Thymol?

There seems to be many things that the bees are resistant to that will kill the other insects.

I like traps to monitor beetle levels, But would welcome anything that causes them to leave or die rather than just trapping to control them.

Point 1: No one is spraying thymol or oxalic acid directly on the bees as suggested by cedaroilguy.

Point 2: Boric acid in the FatBeeMan traps does kill the SHB on contact, as do the Beetleblaster traps and DIY baited traps.

 

[CarrollwoodBees]

I would definitely use cedar oil like orange oil to treat wood to keep out termites or moths, there I agree with you. I will be ecstatic to be proven wrong about the killing bees things. I'm not saying stop trying, I'm just saying "not on my bees."

 

[Omie]

With products that kill parasites, it's often a matter of degree. You put flea killer on a dog and the dosage is enough to kill fleas but not make the dog sick. Quadruple the dosage and you may have a sick dog, or the dog may even die from pesticide poisoning. Some dogs may even have bad reactions to a normal dose of flea killer.
If you have a strong enough dose of anything that kills mites, like formic acid, it will kill the bees as well, just as it would kill you if the dose was strong enough. Spray enough full strength lemon or peppermint oil in a hive and you'll kill the bees as well.
Short of killing bees, a mite killer in smaller doses is supposed to kill or repel mites but not bees. However, it's a bit tricky to know whether the product is truly 'harmless' to bees. It's hard to know whether subtle damage is being done to bees' systems or to their ability to communicate or navigate...yet to look at them the bees appear to be fine. When it comes to any substance that can kill, repel, or damage, it's a matter of degree.

 

[Iddee]

"" When it comes to any substance that can kill, repel, or damage, it's a matter of degree.""

Very true.

Take water and alcohol. Each save many humans and kill many humans, depending on it's application.
The big thing on this thread that Big Bear is trying to point out that few seem to see is, He is testing and reporting, not recommending.
Most scientific breakthroughs happen after failures have killed a number of subjects. I think we should encourage new ideas and see where they lead, even if they do kill bees.

 

[brooksbeefarm]

Big Bear, i'll take some of the heat off you.:thumbsup: I've got a formula that has the essential thymol oil in it( and others), that i spray on the frames with bees brood and all. I do this twice in the early spring (two weeks apart) and once in the fall on warm days so they can groom each other and dry off. I do this before honey supers are put on and after they are taken off. I didn't have a mite problem this year so i didn't do anything, i had 74 hives starting out this spring and have 68 hives now (4 of them were robbed out),. Been doing this six years now, and even with the drought this year, i had one of my better honey production years.The only problem (the bees had) that i remember was, when i couldn't remember how much thymol oil i put in, so i added a little more. When i checked those first hives i treated on my way out, most of the bees were bearding on the front of the hive and several were on the landing boad fanning. 80% of my hives are strong with lots of stores for the coming winter, the other 20% are late nucs made into hives and hives that had bad queens that will be combined. The thymol won't do anything to the SHB (darn it) but keeping strong hives will. It's hard to argue with success, (for now anyway) so let me have it.:grin: Jack
Hope this helps Big Bear.

 

[Eddy Honey]

Carol,

No body is suggesting anything.
Big Bear is conducting his own experiment and sharing his findings and plans with us here in this thread.
No experimentation leads to ...well...nothing....
Big Bear is prove or dis-prove something and is willing to let us watch.

Thank you Big Bear for sharing.

Point 1: No one is spraying thymol or oxalic acid directly on the bees as suggested by cedaroilguy.

Point 2: Boric acid in the FatBeeMan traps does kill the SHB on contact, as do the Beetleblaster traps and DIY baited traps.

 

[John67x]

"Nicotine is a natural substance, so why all the hoopla over nicotinoids?"... "

I remember the days when I would treat queen bees against Braula caeca by placing them in a bag and smoking in cigarette smoke. The Braula would fall off and then I would place the pest-free queens, unharmed, back in the hive.
I haven't encountered this pest in years---does it still exist? Has it been totally eradicated due to the (much stronger) treatments, against varroa?

Argh...having freshly kicked the habit of smoking I thought I'd peruse the forum to take my mind off the subject..it seems I picked the wrong subject to take my mind off the other...subject..I now wonder if it's safe to smoke some cedar oil. It certainly smells better anyway..I'd like a cedarrette please.... I really didn't mean to meander off the subject with this comment though..it was the cedar oil treatment idea that caught my eye. I think it shows some promise and I hope it can ultimately prove to be a safe and effective tool.

 

[efmesch]

John,
I wish you success in staying off those sticks of poison called cigarettes. They are terrible--not only for those who smoke them (willingly) but for all those nearby who unwilliingly have to suffer from the poisons they don't want.
Just remember, the queen may manage to live through the nicotine treatment that kills the braula, but I seriously doubt if they enjoy it.

 

[fatbeeman]

I just hate to comment on peoples post,but its the small beekeeper who tries new things not the big university's with big grants are the ones making discoveries I made my share of mistakes.
Don

 

[Melissaejacklyn]

The hive is its own ecosystem. Every insect in that hive plays an important role. It disrupts pheromones.

 

[QuiltingElf]

I have been using cedar oil spray against small hive beetles, ants and wax moths. the spray is primarily cedar oil, a natural ingredient with high pesticidal qualities.

I have sprayed directly on bees who are not killed by it, but will get out of the way. shb die within seconds, wax moths and ants similarly.

I spray the cedar oil spray on the entrance boards, bottom boards under a screen and on the underside of inner cover sand top covers.

I also spray it on the ground below the hive stands to kill shb in the ground below the hive areas. Keeps populations from building up too much.

This is the first year of my using cedar oil spray in bee hives and I plan to keep testing it and observing it's effect over a number of seasons.

What was the results from your experiments with the Cedarwood oils?

 

[amandabee]

Daniel Y, you are correct. not only ichemical reaction but in other areas as well.

for example, temps above 115 often kill many other insects, but not bees. it has been experimented with many times heating bees up to eliminate mites with success.

The opposite is true. Bees have been put into severe cold temps that have killed other insects, but not bees.

This is because like humans, insects are not all like.

This is why testing is done, to determine the effects of a treatment to see the effects against bees and other insects.

We talk about "long term results" but every study has to start somewhere. to not try simply because it doesn't give all the answers immediately is totally opposite human experience.

I never came in here telling everyone to start using cedar oil. I said I was testing cedar oil and sharing my results here.

Two very different things.

So many things can happen in using something to treat in a bee nest.

the amount may be too much or not enough. The method of application may not be appropriate, Then you also have timing issues. how long does it take being present in what amount before it shows effect? How long does the effect last? How far apart do treatments need to be.

none of these questions are resolved immediately. It takes time to chase them all down.

forgive me for attempting to share a discussion of trying something new that could maybe help beekeepers hives.

Sorry, this is an old post, but if you're around, did you have any follow up conclusions/ observations? It sounded like you were onto a potentially good thing there. I'm making my new hive out of cedar. Less potent than the oil obviously, but also long term, although bees may propolise the walls. I hope they will. I've been fascinated with oily fragrant woods, propolis and how this all works in nature, from which I draw my best insights. So I ascertained that bees will live in cedar hollows, which was good enough for me so I made my new hive out of cedar ( no bees in it yet, this spring- coming about 3 months away ( in Australia) . Speaking of oils- when I prepare my bases in my nuke boxes, I melt down pine resin, and add 20% beeswax and ~5% essential oils- a hack imitation of making 'propolis'. It is said that propolis is about 10% "essential"/ volatile oils, 30%beeswax, 40% resin, 1 % bees enzymes and bacteria. The resins foraged by bees for propolis contain phytochemicals to help protect plants against herbivores. Hence it is easy to make link between the oily, aromatic plants often used therapeutically- tea tree oil- anti fungal & antibiotic, eucalyptus- anti everything, lavender- good for spider bites etc, and propolis, not too much of any one ingredient as one is virtually stabbing in the dark. Of course they are volatile so putting them in mix under heat is somewhat counter constructive. Well the bees did not mind their base, and suffered no discernible ill effects ( in fact considering there was very little forage around they actually did quite well). I've only tried the essential oil thing in one nuc, not enough to really draw any conclusions but I'm going to keep experimenting with it. When it's resin only it makes a shiny, waterproof, hard layer. (I didn't want to paint base because I don't like chemicals gassing off inside my hives. I guess I'll have to get over that with varroa.) The bees wax component of the resin mix should trap much of the volatile fraction in and release over time. Maybe this could be tried with thyme oil within an integrated approach ????

 

[roadkillbobb]

people use fragrant cedar to line closets to keep moths and other insects away, so my question would be..bees are insects..will the cedar keep them away?...just like humans..we dont like rancid or foul smells..they wont harm us, but we dont want to be around them and rather be in areas that smell nice...so will the bees do the same?..

 

[amandabee]

people use fragrant cedar to line closets to keep moths and other insects away, so my question would be..bees are insects..will the cedar keep them away?...just like humans..we dont like rancid or foul smells..they wont harm us, but we dont want to be around them and rather be in areas that smell nice...so will the bees do the same?..

yes, i'd considered this- ( what led me to cedar was that mum gave me a camphor wood chest that i didn't want, and it was when i was designing my long langstroth hive and I thought hey, how about... but research quickly elucidated that camphor was indeed toxic for bees ( unsurprisingly as you have pointed out above). However I found much anecdotal evidence of bees living inside cedar trees. I also would assume they would propolise interior. I am quite fascinated with propolis and think a lot about aromatic oils and plant phytochemicals that get harvested for propolis &c. and six degrees of separation later, i thought if the bees don't mind it then the wood should be fairly rot resistant and hopefully not conducive to SHB and other pathogens. Which i haven't actually had thus far touch wood so i don't know..but I try to do best for bees physiology. The interior is very roughed up, for desired propolis envelope. I'm putting bees in it this season, it's currently sitting in the warm house on the coffee table with some drawn comb and some old, almost black frames in it to help get it smelling nice and bee-ey for them. I hope i"m not wrong. there's been a lot of work gone into this hive. I'll keep you updated.

 

[roadkillbobb]

im willing to bet any human made product from cedar may have other chemicals infused into the wood to keep the cedar smell strong, unlike the natural cedar tree...seems anything humans touch becomes toxic to nature...best way to find out is to experiment...also is the strength of natural cedar oils in the tree to human made stuff where the strength or concentration of the cedar oil may be a much higher level and thus toxic to bees...