[Big Bear]

Daniel Y, you are correct. not only ichemical reaction but in other areas as well.

for example, temps above 115 often kill many other insects, but not bees. it has been experimented with many times heating bees up to eliminate mites with success.

The opposite is true. Bees have been put into severe cold temps that have killed other insects, but not bees.

This is because like humans, insects are not all like.

This is why testing is done, to determine the effects of a treatment to see the effects against bees and other insects.

We talk about "long term results" but every study has to start somewhere. to not try simply because it doesn't give all the answers immediately is totally opposite human experience.

I never came in here telling everyone to start using cedar oil. I said I was testing cedar oil and sharing my results here.

Two very different things.

So many things can happen in using something to treat in a bee nest.

the amount may be too much or not enough. The method of application may not be appropriate, Then you also have timing issues. how long does it take being present in what amount before it shows effect? How long does the effect last? How far apart do treatments need to be.

none of these questions are resolved immediately. It takes time to chase them all down.

forgive me for attempting to share a discussion of trying something new that could maybe help beekeepers hives.

 

[CarrollwoodBees]

"If it's killing the other critters, it's killing the bees"

How can Oxalic Acid be explained if this is true? Any mite treatment for that matter. How would Cedar Oil if shown to not harm bees be any different than mite away or Thymol?

There seems to be many things that the bees are resistant to that will kill the other insects.

I like traps to monitor beetle levels, But would welcome anything that causes them to leave or die rather than just trapping to control them.

Point 1: No one is spraying thymol or oxalic acid directly on the bees as suggested by cedaroilguy.

Point 2: Boric acid in the FatBeeMan traps does kill the SHB on contact, as do the Beetleblaster traps and DIY baited traps.

 

[CarrollwoodBees]

I would definitely use cedar oil like orange oil to treat wood to keep out termites or moths, there I agree with you. I will be ecstatic to be proven wrong about the killing bees things. I'm not saying stop trying, I'm just saying "not on my bees."

 

[Omie]

With products that kill parasites, it's often a matter of degree. You put flea killer on a dog and the dosage is enough to kill fleas but not make the dog sick. Quadruple the dosage and you may have a sick dog, or the dog may even die from pesticide poisoning. Some dogs may even have bad reactions to a normal dose of flea killer.
If you have a strong enough dose of anything that kills mites, like formic acid, it will kill the bees as well, just as it would kill you if the dose was strong enough. Spray enough full strength lemon or peppermint oil in a hive and you'll kill the bees as well.
Short of killing bees, a mite killer in smaller doses is supposed to kill or repel mites but not bees. However, it's a bit tricky to know whether the product is truly 'harmless' to bees. It's hard to know whether subtle damage is being done to bees' systems or to their ability to communicate or navigate...yet to look at them the bees appear to be fine. When it comes to any substance that can kill, repel, or damage, it's a matter of degree.

 

[Iddee]

"" When it comes to any substance that can kill, repel, or damage, it's a matter of degree.""

Very true.

Take water and alcohol. Each save many humans and kill many humans, depending on it's application.
The big thing on this thread that Big Bear is trying to point out that few seem to see is, He is testing and reporting, not recommending.
Most scientific breakthroughs happen after failures have killed a number of subjects. I think we should encourage new ideas and see where they lead, even if they do kill bees.

 

[brooksbeefarm]

Big Bear, i'll take some of the heat off you.:thumbsup: I've got a formula that has the essential thymol oil in it( and others), that i spray on the frames with bees brood and all. I do this twice in the early spring (two weeks apart) and once in the fall on warm days so they can groom each other and dry off. I do this before honey supers are put on and after they are taken off. I didn't have a mite problem this year so i didn't do anything, i had 74 hives starting out this spring and have 68 hives now (4 of them were robbed out),. Been doing this six years now, and even with the drought this year, i had one of my better honey production years.The only problem (the bees had) that i remember was, when i couldn't remember how much thymol oil i put in, so i added a little more. When i checked those first hives i treated on my way out, most of the bees were bearding on the front of the hive and several were on the landing boad fanning. 80% of my hives are strong with lots of stores for the coming winter, the other 20% are late nucs made into hives and hives that had bad queens that will be combined. The thymol won't do anything to the SHB (darn it) but keeping strong hives will. It's hard to argue with success, (for now anyway) so let me have it.:grin: Jack
Hope this helps Big Bear.

 

[Eddy Honey]

Carol,

No body is suggesting anything.
Big Bear is conducting his own experiment and sharing his findings and plans with us here in this thread.
No experimentation leads to ...well...nothing....
Big Bear is prove or dis-prove something and is willing to let us watch.

Thank you Big Bear for sharing.

Point 1: No one is spraying thymol or oxalic acid directly on the bees as suggested by cedaroilguy.

Point 2: Boric acid in the FatBeeMan traps does kill the SHB on contact, as do the Beetleblaster traps and DIY baited traps.

 

[John67x]

"Nicotine is a natural substance, so why all the hoopla over nicotinoids?"... "

I remember the days when I would treat queen bees against Braula caeca by placing them in a bag and smoking in cigarette smoke. The Braula would fall off and then I would place the pest-free queens, unharmed, back in the hive.
I haven't encountered this pest in years---does it still exist? Has it been totally eradicated due to the (much stronger) treatments, against varroa?

Argh...having freshly kicked the habit of smoking I thought I'd peruse the forum to take my mind off the subject..it seems I picked the wrong subject to take my mind off the other...subject..I now wonder if it's safe to smoke some cedar oil. It certainly smells better anyway..I'd like a cedarrette please.... I really didn't mean to meander off the subject with this comment though..it was the cedar oil treatment idea that caught my eye. I think it shows some promise and I hope it can ultimately prove to be a safe and effective tool.

 

[efmesch]

John,
I wish you success in staying off those sticks of poison called cigarettes. They are terrible--not only for those who smoke them (willingly) but for all those nearby who unwilliingly have to suffer from the poisons they don't want.
Just remember, the queen may manage to live through the nicotine treatment that kills the braula, but I seriously doubt if they enjoy it.

 

[fatbeeman]

I just hate to comment on peoples post,but its the small beekeeper who tries new things not the big university's with big grants are the ones making discoveries I made my share of mistakes.
Don

 

[Melissaejacklyn]

The hive is its own ecosystem. Every insect in that hive plays an important role. It disrupts pheromones.

 

[QuiltingElf]

I have been using cedar oil spray against small hive beetles, ants and wax moths. the spray is primarily cedar oil, a natural ingredient with high pesticidal qualities.

I have sprayed directly on bees who are not killed by it, but will get out of the way. shb die within seconds, wax moths and ants similarly.

I spray the cedar oil spray on the entrance boards, bottom boards under a screen and on the underside of inner cover sand top covers.

I also spray it on the ground below the hive stands to kill shb in the ground below the hive areas. Keeps populations from building up too much.

This is the first year of my using cedar oil spray in bee hives and I plan to keep testing it and observing it's effect over a number of seasons.

What was the results from your experiments with the Cedarwood oils?