Cross breeding Apis Mellifera Scutellata with an European Apis Mellifera.

Discussion in 'General Beekeeping' started by Kevin, Jul 15, 2013.

  1. Kevin

    Kevin New Member

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    Hi all,

    Its been a while, we are hibernating here in Africa, winter is definitely upon us.

    As you all know our bees are really aggressive down here, I would like to calm them down a bit...

    My question is, will Apis Mellifera Scutellata cross breed succesfully with an European Apis Mellifera Queen? And will this make my bees less aggressive?
     
  2. Iddee

    Iddee New Member

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    Yes, they will cross, but the scut defense is said to be dominant, so they are still aggressive.
     

  3. Kevin

    Kevin New Member

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    Will the new brood not then be her offspring which are less aggressive?
     
  4. ApisBees

    ApisBees Active Member

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    There was only a few queens that were crosses released in 1956 in Brazill and the opinion of the day was that the genetics would be diminished and weeken as the African bees spread. Where they ever wrong, in 1995 when the African bees entered the USA and DNA samples were compared to samples from Africa Guess what thee bees were African. The bees will keep superseding the queens you install until the hives are African.
     
  5. trinibee

    trinibee New Member

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    Hi Kevin,
    Its my experience that while the resulting strain will still be aggressive, they can be much less aggressive than pure african bees. What has been observed here in trinidad is that the first and second generation queen are very docile compared to strains that are more africanized. What we do here as as well is, we flood the area with italian drones which increases the possibility of a VQ mating with and italian drone. This has proven to be a very sucessful strategy in reducing the aggressiveness of the bees we keep.

    Apis, fortunately i have not experienced the supersedure of queens based on their italian linage.
     
  6. Kevin

    Kevin New Member

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    Interesting guys.
    Why wouldnt a virgin queen mate with the drones she laid and therefor become less aggressive?
     
  7. Americasbeekeeper

    Americasbeekeeper New Member

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    Bees do not mate with their own brothers or sons. Inbreeeding can be forced with artificial insemination, but it will lead to genetic depression. The offspring will never be as good as the parents. Bees mate in the air a good distance from the hive to prevent or reduce inbreeding. The USDA did and is doing quite a bit of research with scutellata. The past 60 plus years say they will not be watered down. http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/ar/archive/mar04/bees0304.htm?pf=1
     
  8. Kevin

    Kevin New Member

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    I just learnt something new then. Very interesting, theyre such amazingly clever insects!
    So my conclusion would then be, an EHB queen will not help my colony cool down :(
     
  9. trinibee

    trinibee New Member

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    do

    Americabeekeeper i would want to disagree with your last statement that the african bee will not be watered down. the report clearly states that the strain of bees we classified as the africanized bees retains some of the dominant traits of the EHB. the report does not address several key considerations in Kevin's case; for example in an area where african/africanized bees exists what can be done to reduce the aggressiveness of the bees, what impact the strategy of flooding the area with EHB drones have on the aggresiveness of the resulting hive, does usurpation occur between african and africanized hives and if so at what percentage.
    The focus of that report looks more at maintaining an environment where the EHB is dominant and does not focus on managing the aggressiveness of the african/africanized bees.
    Note, i'm not saying that the africanized bees will be as gentle as EHBs because they prob will never be ( though there is research taking place at the moment to capitalize on the africanized bees resistance to pests and diseases), what i'm saying is that with proper management and monitoring of your stock of africanized bees you are able to reduce the aggressiveness of african bees by mating them with EHBs whether through artificial insemination or open mating. It has been done here in Trinidad using both africanized and EHBs as queen mothers
     
  10. Kevin

    Kevin New Member

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    I think what will work is, getting an European queen, and requeening my hot hive with her. She will be laying larvae that will turn out less aggressive and there for after a couple of months, my whole hive should be much less aggressive. I know african bees are more pest resistant and they fill hives much faster but I want them to be less hot.
    Now my question is, living in quite a temperate area, with winter days reaching up to 17 degrees Celsius, what type of Queen should I get?
     
  11. ORoedel

    ORoedel New Member

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    Kevin, it isn´t easy to requeen scuts, but not impossible. If you use a PURE (F0) queen then the new bees (daughters of the european mum) are purê too, what means calm. The second generation (f1) is a purê queen, cause daughter of a purê queen which mated with purê european drone, BUT the bees (daughters) will be africanized, cause she mated in nature with african drones. BUT tehy are calm mostly. The F2 is agressiv and F5 is just near a F0 scut.What you need: Purê mated european queens. Then you use moonshine mating or artificial insemination. If not: will be scut again in some generations.Trinibee: don´t think this Works. In Brazil (scut) at the Argentinian border (Ligustica) DNA tests shows that the "africanized" bees in this region are near to 100% scuts. Scut is invasive, (usurpation) and genetically and reproductive dominant...If you have any question, our queen breeder is a professional in this. He worked for a long time with scuds and then searched a european line which resists the scut usurpation. He found the argentinian ligustica NAVEIRO.I just did the test and took scut usurpator queens of a usupator swarm and put her in the entrance of a italian hive. The guardians killed her. It´s normal to find killed scut queens near the italian hives.If somebody knows another tribe/line of european bees who are "resistant" against the scut invasion feromon, please inform me/us! Thanks!
     
  12. ORoedel

    ORoedel New Member

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    sorry, but scut isn´t resistant against nothing, but she leaves the "sick" hive.And you will produce with europeans much more and better honey than with scuts.
     
  13. Kevin

    Kevin New Member

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    So, can anyone help me with what type of Queen I should be getting?
     
  14. ORoedel

    ORoedel New Member

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    You know a european bee breeder wher you could get/buy queens? It would be better/easyier to get a package, cause scutellata bees don´t like other races, but it´s possible to requeen a scut colony. If you mix scut whith european genetic you´re not getting better scuts but worse european. Scut genetic is dominant and the worse bee I know. Better try to keep purê or max F1.
    If there is no breeder you need to import. Is this possible for you?

    The original queens I use are from Argentina http://www.reinasdeprieto.com.ar/ our local breeder is http://apiariocosmos.com.br/
    Feel free to contact our local breeder for more informations. If you need some ideas how to keep them alive in scut área, you can contact.
     
  15. Kevin

    Kevin New Member

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    I will get one from europe, a friend will bring me one. But im not sure what breed to get?
    How long can she stay in her queen cage?
     
  16. ORoedel

    ORoedel New Member

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    Only one Kevin!? That´s not much, tell him to bring 4 queens. You read the advises of Brother Adam/Kehrle about requeening? Requeen scut IS NOT easy! The ONLY line who survives scut until today was the NAVEIRO, BUT this doesn´t means your queens don´t have to go well. Cause we don´t have the chance to test a lot of races/queens cause importation is prohibit here in brazil, and there aren´t many poeple willing take na airplane with ilegal "stuff"...sure are but no queens, and we can´t pay like drug mafia ;-)
     
  17. ORoedel

    ORoedel New Member

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    Keep the queen in cage is "not" a problem (it is but there is no better way). Important, in airconditioned aircraft, don´t let the food dry! Put some drops of water on the food if it seems to dry, and even for the bees to drink. If you prepare os núcleos/colonys to be requeened do it in the right time. You need to leave the hive for 8 days queenless, brake the queencells and AFTER this put the queencage in. Important: bees could kill a queen IN the cage! Yes they can! If make the queenless colony, move they away to loose all old fly bees! Young bees accept better the new queen. Keep the new hive FAR away of your scut hives! If the clima helps, you can take only some capped brood and honey (no pollen) frames WITHOUT bees. Put them in a nuc, and free the queen. Close the nuc and keep it warm (not hot) and take care of ants! keep in house is the best! After the first bees are born put it in the new place and open the hive... look for my hints how to defend of robbing and usurpation!
     
  18. Barbarian

    Barbarian New Member

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    Sorry. I can't advise which race of European Honeybee to use.

    Walvis Bay has a very unusual (severe ?) climate. I think it is going to be a case of reading about the various EHBs and making a choice. If your choice proves successful then it looks like you are going to have to keep bringing in fresh pure Qs to maintain the effect. Let us know how you get on. Even a bad result will have value.

    Winter is a good time to assess the previous season's events and make plans for the coming year. I am happy to see that you have decided to do away with your aggressive colony. By getting rid of colonies with bad habits it should make the stock you have left more suitable and suitable for making increase.

    I notice from some of your other posts that you collect swarms from the area. If you continue to do this then it might be advisable to re-queen these swarms with stock from your home hives where you know the temper. A colony of scuts which is nice and placid as a swarm may turn nasty and pass this trait on.
     
  19. Kevin

    Kevin New Member

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    Hi Barbarian,
    As for the climate of Walvis Bay, I wouldnt say its severe as such, our average temperature in the year is 21 degrees celcius. It never rains, but everyone has nice green gardens which feed the bees. Our winters only go down to like 9 degrees celcius at the coldest, which is only during the night. The wind can blow in the winter, we get a few very hot days, but on the whole, its misty. The bees are doing well :)
    I got rid of the really aggressive hives, and decided to only keep one at home. They are chilled out but on the hot day when theyre busy and I come too close they bump into me asking me to leave. I think If my queen plan works I could get a new F0 every 2 years or so.
    I thought of the plane ride the other day and not sure my bee will survive the pesticide stuff they spray before flights? I need to think of another way that might work, what about in the hold? Few things to think about here. Also, as you said I need to read a bit more about different EBH's.