Dead Hive Post Mortum Evaluation (part II) additional pics from first post on same

Discussion in 'General Beekeeping' started by Michbeeman63, Mar 8, 2012.

  1. Michbeeman63

    Michbeeman63 New Member

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    2nd post on same subject. water stains in corner of box which tilted forward and where water dripped out. DSCN6176.jpg DSCN6183.jpg DSCN6177.jpg DSCN6178.jpg DSCN6179.jpg DSCN6180.jpg DSCN6181.jpg DSCN6182.jpg
     
  2. Hog Wild

    Hog Wild New Member

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    Not sure of the culprit but I usually freeze my frames from dead outs for a couple of days and then re-use them. With your weather you may be safe just cleaning up the hardware and letting it sit.

    I had one dead out this year and due to time restraints/weather just let it sit with intentions bringing it home. When I went back the following week it was full of bees, I reckon some surrounding scouts did their job! :grin:

    Sorry for your loss....
     

  3. Michbeeman63

    Michbeeman63 New Member

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    Thanks Hog Wild,

    would you use these frames all in the current hive or spread the comb and honey amongst the two new hives and this existing hive
     
  4. Omie

    Omie New Member

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    See my comment in the other thread in this subject. :)
     
  5. PerryBee

    PerryBee New Member

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    I don't see anything that unusual here, except some dysentry (possible nosema) stains on the top bars in your last couple of pics. If you can freeze them, do so. The moisture (water) staining on the one corner of the third from last pic is no biggie to me, not every hive gets sealed up 100% by the bees and during a heavy rain with a bit of wind they leak a bit.
     
  6. tecumseh

    tecumseh New Member

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    the dead bees on the bottom board in the background of picture 3 seems to suggest the hive has a fairly small cluster of bees... not tiny but none the less small. the stains on the sides of the inside boxes suggest what I would suspect is exactly the likely suspect here... which is leaking equipment and either driving rain or powdery blowing snow.

    if you did wrap these hive you might wish to rethink how you are doing that.

    nice catch Perry on the dysentery.... I would guess given the population not really excessive but there is a very small chance that nosema (almost by definition would have to be the apis variety given the location and time of year) played some small part here. nosema can have some 'larger' roll when a group of bees is stressed.
     
  7. Michbeeman63

    Michbeeman63 New Member

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    thanks for your thoughts. I can't see any areas that leaking would occur except on the candy board itself. This is just below the cover and it has a queen excluder right below it making a gap. there is a 5/8 inch hole in the candy board which is a small opening for water to come in. The top is a galvanized cover the wraps around the wood so I don't see any place for water to come in this cover. Basically I'm stumped on what I can do to look for a leak.

    what causes dysentry or nosema? Does freezing out the frames rid the hive of this for the new bees?

    thanks again for the help
     
  8. Michbeeman63

    Michbeeman63 New Member

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    There were quite a few more bees than this in the month before it dies. I scrapped out the dead bees and there were probably this many that I removed over a couple week period of time. The hive was not wrapped. If the cause was dysentery or nosema, what do I do with this
    hive?

    thanks for the help.
     
  9. Hog Wild

    Hog Wild New Member

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    I would freeze and re-use based on your photo's you should be good to go. :thumbsup:
     
  10. Michbeeman63

    Michbeeman63 New Member

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    PerryBee, what does dysentary look like. the brown stains that looks like somone had the green apple trotts? Is this uncommon or a sign of sickness.
     
  11. Hog Wild

    Hog Wild New Member

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    Yes, it is the brown stains that are on the top of your frames, alot of times you will see it concentrated on your bottom boards as well.
     
  12. PerryBee

    PerryBee New Member

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    The dark brown staining on your top bars (and running down the comb) is dysentary. Bees will normally not defecate in the hive but will wait until there is opportunity for cleansing flights. When bees are infected with nosema (particularily nosema apis) they may defecate inside the hive. As far as I know, nosema ceranae does not always carry this tell tale sign.
    Often you will see a bit of this staining on the outside of a hive where bees are letting go as they leave and enter, particularily after a prolonged containment.
    For me, nosema apis was easier to identify because of this "calling card", nosema ceranae is a little more insidious and often times the first discovery is often too late.
     
  13. Omie

    Omie New Member

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    You had a queen excluder on all winter? If so, why?
     
  14. tecumseh

    tecumseh New Member

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    a snip..
    The hive was not wrapped.

    tecumseh:
    not totally knowledgeable about your area but at least part of the function of wrapping is to limit drafts of cold air and any blowing 'wet stuff' that you might experience. I suspect 'at' the mason-dixon line you can (in most location with limited elevation) avoid this process, but at places not much farther north (or where you do have significant winds and blowing snow or rain) wrapping should be considered. in some place wrapping and some kind of shelter belt set up might be advisable.
     
  15. Michbeeman63

    Michbeeman63 New Member

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    it was the bottom of my candy board. I put thin paper over it and molded the sugar in it.
     
  16. Michbeeman63

    Michbeeman63 New Member

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    What causes dysentary or nosema apis? Is it just a weak hive in general. Is there anything necessary to clean out for these two potential issues? Do the bees clean out this themselves. Does freezing the frames and torching the sides down clear this up for the new swarm?

    appreciate you help.
     
  17. Michbeeman63

    Michbeeman63 New Member

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    maybe I should have given them pepto bismal
     
  18. PerryBee

    PerryBee New Member

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    :lol:

    The "standard" treatment for nosema (apis or ceranae) is fumagillan (fumadil b) mixed in with your sugar syrup. Used to be recommended for spring or fall but is now recommended for both spring and fall.
    I don't know what your chosen management style is so I am not sure if this is the route you would want to go. I myself have stopped using fumadil (and terramycin/oxytet) for the last several years. I was part of a university study on nosema and they reported low spore counts on the samples they collected over the year and I haven't bothered with it since.
    It might explain some winter losses but I can't ever be sure of that unless I sent bees away to be tested. Trying to wean off most stuff but will do what's necessary if the choice is lose 'em or not. Personal choice.
     
  19. Michbeeman63

    Michbeeman63 New Member

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    PerryBee,

    I did some reading and found that they recommend heating the frames to 120C for 25 hours if there is suspected nosema apis. Based on what you see from my pics do you feel this is necessary?

    If it is necessary, what do I do with the 30 lbs of honey that is capped. I can't heat treat and leave the honey in the combs I presume. It would be great if it is good for me to eat. Is there any concern with this for me getting sick from this. Boil honey? I know this is blasphemy, but a good question.

    finally, what causes this noema asis? can the dripping water cause it, or is the water dripping a symptom of the weak hive. Could this have been present all summer, and been the reason the hive never took off and produced surplus honey.

    can't thank you enough for all your help.
     
  20. tecumseh

    tecumseh New Member

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    nosema is a disease that affects the gut of the honeybee. the full detail of how it works is very nasty.. when it hits the hind gut it unwinds little lances that pierce the digestive tract. nosema at some low level is generally not a problem unless a hive is highly stressed. each of the nosema twins being derived from vastly different places... one of southern and the other of northern origin. so the simple clean up process for equipment is you heat up one and chill the other. most national bee health survey now suggest that nosema apis is fairly rare and nosema carena is much more prevalent. nosema carena is the one that doesn't thrive so well in the cold so you can likely eliminate this as a factor given you location and time of year.

    based on the evidence in your picture I wouldn't think nosema is not much of a player in the demise of this hive. the small amount of fecal matter present could just have well have been generated by a long period of confinement when the worker bees could not relieve themselves. rather than disease the culprit here was likely thermal shock from cold running water and possible some snow and ice.... essentially exposure.