discovery vrs extermination in florida

Discussion in 'General Beekeeping' started by 2kooldad, Jan 30, 2013.

  1. 2kooldad

    2kooldad New Member

    Messages:
    583
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Would a hive you yourself find in a tree or old building be subject under the rules the same as if somebody called you out to come an "remove" bees, and is milking a hive from a tree also regulated ??? (By milking i mean only taking some of the bees in order to start a hive an letting the parent hive recoup before doing it again...((you can...ive done it))
     
  2. G3farms

    G3farms New Member

    Messages:
    5,162
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I am not that familiar with the bee laws of FL, but bees that are located in any kind of housing that does not have removable frames is illegal in TN.

    I do think some of the laws are silly but have good intentions. I have kept bee trees for a couple of years with no problems until they died out. Most of these laws are designed to keep disease and pest from from spreading. I know when I have a problem and how to take care of it (for the most part), and if not I know who to call.
     

  3. 2kooldad

    2kooldad New Member

    Messages:
    583
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Most of the bee trees here in florida that i have seen an watched don't last long...all of the ones i could determine why they died was from SHB...ive only milked 2 so far an after the second time they both died from SHB after getting too weak...the colonys in most of the trees around me are small to start...the way i see it is if its made it thru one winter...ima take it because it wont see a second...if its in a structure thats diffrent...i have a bee tree on my land that saw a second year...big 36" oak...one day they plugged up the hole an that was that...my guess is the shade of a tree vs a sunny wall or owlbox an the SHB move right in.
     
  4. Americasbeekeeper

    Americasbeekeeper New Member

    Messages:
    1,126
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    If you are worried about the controversy, do not take anything to kill the bees (pesticides and alternatives that are lethal) and do not charge such that a Florida Consumer could file a complaint. This is the latest from Michael Page with public comments included.
    Notice of Development of Rulemaking
    DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE AND CONSUMER SERVICES
    Division of Agricultural Environmental Services
    RULE NO.: RULE TITLE:
    5E-14.151 Removal and Relocation of Live Bees from Structures
    PURPOSE AND EFFECT: The purpose of this rulemaking is to exempt live bee removal from the performance of
    pest control. The effect of this rulemaking will provide beekeepers authority to perform live bee removals in, on, or
    under structures without the need for licensure.
    SUBJECT AREA TO BE ADDRESSED: Removal and relocation of bees.
    RULEMAKING AUTHORITY: 482.051, 570.07(23), 586.10 FS.
    LAW IMPLEMENTED: 570.02(1), 482.021(21) and (22), 586.10 FS.
    A RULE DEVELOPMENT WORKSHOP WILL BE HELD AT THE DATE, TIME AND PLACE SHOWN
    BELOW:
    DATE AND TIME: January 17, 2013, 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m.
    PLACE: Doyle Conner Building, 1911 S.W. 34th Street, Rm: Auditorium, Gainesville, FL 32608; (352)395-4700.
    THE PERSON TO BE CONTACTED REGARDING THE PROPOSED RULE DEVELOPMENT AND A COPY
    OF THE PRELIMINARY DRAFT, IF AVAILABLE, IS: Michael J. Page, Chief of Bureau of Entomology and Pest
    Control, 3125 Conner Boulevard, Ste N, MS C-41, Tallahassee, Florida, 32399-1650, (850)617-7988;
    Michael.Page@FreshFromFlorida.com.
    THE PRELIMINARY TEXT OF THE PROPOSED RULE DEVELOPMENT IS:
    5E-14.151 Removal and Relocation of Live Bees from Structures.
    (1) The removal and relocation of bees by a beekeeper registered pursuant to Section586.045, F.S., from a
    structure, lawn, or ornamental for the principal purpose of facilitating the production of honey or the
    pollination of plants or crops shall not be considered pest control.
    Comments:
    · Would like to add language that allows employees of beekeepers to remove bees without every employee
    having to become a registered beekeeper.
    · In the event employees are permitted to remove bees without being a registered beekeeper, we could add a
    provision requiring the registered beekeeper to be present during the removal. This would also allow people
    to be trained without being a beekeeper.
    · Concern that requiring everyone performing bee removals to be a registered beekeeper will be a barrier to
    training people to perform bee removals in the future. Department notes the minimal requirements for
    becoming a registered beekeeper make this unlikely.
    · Some would like to add an insurance requirement.
    (2) The use of foam or soapy water, pheromone lures, attractants, repellants, and glue boards to control
    bees by a registered beekeeper when he or she is removing and relocating bees from a structure, lawn,
    or ornamental for the principal purpose of facilitating the production of honey or the pollination of
    crops shall not be considered pest control.
    Comments:
    · Some would like more explicit language that the removal of bees under these conditions is an exemption
    from the pest control requirements. Others would like to clarify that the use of these products is for
    emergencies only.
    · MB: Comments regarding need for training and insurance show that bee removal should be regulated as
    pest control. Then we could make rules that specifically address the training of bee removers. Also,
    suggests bee removers partner with pest control companies for training—could work as ID cardholders for
    purposes of getting trained.
    · Leo: The discussion is moving backward. Prefers a rule that allows bee removal without the requirements
    of pest control.
    · No mention of vacuums. Some would like to see “mechanical devices” included in the list.
    · Leo: Will water be included. MP: yes water may be used under this rule.
    · Need clarification on what is meant by “soap.” PCOs are required to use insecticidal soap because they
    cannot use unregistered products, but here we are allowing other people to use an unregistered product,
    such as Dawn dish soap? Some would like the only soap allowed to be insecticidal soap.
    · Soap used more for clean up than for controlling bees. MP: What is used for clean-up is not at issue. Here
    we are concerned with what is used for control during the removal process.
    · General consensus that soapy water is not effective in an explosive situation.
    · Ari: Would be better to use a catch-all phrase for what is allowed rather than a limiting, specific list.
    (3) It shall be considered pest control if bees are removed from a structure, lawn, or ornamental for the
    principal purpose of controlling or eliminating bees as a pest or the removal is conducted by a person
    not a beekeeper registered pursuant to Section 586.045, F.S.
    Comments:
    · Some take exception to the use of the term “pest” when describing bees; however, the term is used in this
    context as it is defined in statute (482.021, Florida Statutes).
    · Again, becoming a registered beekeeper should then carry a training requirement.
    · Concern regarding how the terms “controlling” and “eliminating” will be interpreted. Some would like the
    term “controlling” removed from the language because the bees are, in a sense, being controlled when they
    are removed from a structure.
    · Ari: This is a regulation based on outcomes when we should be regulating the activity itself. There is an
    inherent administrative difficulty in regulating intent.
    · Concern that the rule creates an unfair advantage for beekeepers. This section will allow beekeepers with a
    true intent to kill bees to do so under the pretense that they are performing removals.
    · May be anti-competitive and therefore unconstitutional—Results in rewards for some parts of the industry,
    but not others.
    · Some would like to leave structural removals in the GHP category.
    · Some would like to just remove this “intent” language.
    · Questions regarding whether beekeepers will be able to kill “foul broods.” Beekeepers would like to be
    able to destroy these when they are encountered. Suggested that this issue be addressed in subsection (2).
    (4) The use of any chemical other than those described above in (2) to control or eliminate bees in, on, or
    under
    a structure, lawn, or ornamental shall be considered pest control.
    Comments:
    · Beekeepers do not want to use chemicals.
    · Broaden subsection 2 as discussed so that it is a non-exhaustive list.
    · What about the use of “play sand”? MP: Not at issue because it is not used to kill the bees and is not a
    chemical.
    · Need for liability insurance reiterated.
    · Approximately 75% of attendees would like to see a liability insurance requirement for beekeepers for
    purposes of protecting the public.
    (5) The removal and relocation of bees from a structure must be reported, within 72 hours of the removal to
    the
    Bureau of Entomology and Pest Control, 3125 Conner Blvd, Suite N, Tallahassee, FL 32399-1650
    using the form entitled Live Bee Removal Record, FDACS-13690, (Rev. 12/12), which is hereby
    adopted and incorporated by reference and available online at
    http://www.flrules.org/Gateway/reference.
    Comments:
    · Question regarding the definition of a structure—are play grounds included. * Structure is defined in
    482.021, Florida Statutes.
    · Who will receive the info?—Will be collected by the Bureau of Entomology and Pest Control.
    · How to report if the removal is from a tree? MP: we are interested in those hives removed from structures,
    lawns and ornamentals. An address will be sufficient—do not need to know which tree the hive was taken
    from.
    · Need clarification for failure to submit the form. Some would like the form to be optional. DS: Failure to
    use form will mean the bee keeper is performing pest control (not meeting the requirements for the
    exemption).
    · 72 hour requirement is too burdensome. 30 days for submission is more reasonable.
    · Would like to be able to submit electronically—similar to fumigation notices.
    · Some would like to report multiple removals for one customer on one form—ie. 3000 hives removed for a
    local government could be put on one form.
    · Form should require disclosure of the number of removals from each address.
    Rulemaking Authority 482.051, 570.07(23), 586.10 FS. Law Implemented 570.02(1), 482.021(21), (22), 586.10 FS.
    History–New_________.
    GENERAL COMMENTS:
    · Ari: Legal issue with creating an exception to what is defined in statute. DACS is reinterpreting 482 to
    redefine pest control. This creates a constitutional, separation of powers issue. DACS is doing the bidding
    of one segment of the industry. Government may not favor one industry or limit competition.
    · DrK: Do we need an education requirement? If so, what should be required?
    o 80% of group would like to see an education or training requirement
    o Include safety, construction training, electrical safety issues
    o Training should be a requirement for registration, registration should have more requirements
    · More on need for insurance requirement:
    o Minimum insurance requirements should be the same as pest control
    o Leo: small bee keepers do not need insurance
    · More on beekeeper registration—only costs $10 to register with DPI; creates unfair competition for pest
    control when it is so easy to become registered
    · DS: Should the rule specify “honey bees” instead of just “bees”?
    o Beekeepers tend to not want specification
    o Pest Control tends to want the type of bee specified
    o Why would bees other than honey bees be removed? Some beekeepers do remove and relocate
    bumble bees, carpenter bees, etc.
    · MB: suggested wording: "Any act of controlling or eliminating bees by any means or method other than
    live removal by a registered beekeeper from a structure, lawn or ornamental shall be considered as pest
    control as defined in Chapter 482.021" That is all we need. If they are on site to REMOVE LIVE BEES- it
    is up to the beekeeper. If the hive "explodes" they can do what ever they want- it is not pest control. If
    they are there to kill bees, it’s pest control. Period. They can seek an ID card.
    o "The act of controlling or eliminating bees by any means or method other than live removal from
    a structure, lawn or ornamental shall be consideredpest control".
     
  5. Bees In Miami

    Bees In Miami New Member

    Messages:
    148
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Gary: This appears to be a big step in the right direction for FL bee keepers! Keep up the great work! I am sure there is a lot of stuff still to be hammered through, but please continue to keep the bees, and we bee keepers in mind! The PCO's have really had the advantage, and with big money behind them and an uneducated press (willing to reinforce the scare tactics some PCO's use), us bee keepers hands were tied, and the honey bees involved, were doomed. Thanks for stepping up!!! To confirm, bottom line as I read it...removal/swarm/cut out/trap out...'gathering and collecting live bees' is fine, as long as we don't use pesticides, and do our best to protect the public??? It is obvious there are details still being worked on. In the meantime we're essentially good to go as long as we use common sense? Thanks again.
     
  6. Bees In Miami

    Bees In Miami New Member

    Messages:
    148
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Sorry...duplicate

    Sorry, duplicate
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
  7. efmesch

    efmesch Active Member

    Messages:
    3,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    2kooldad: I bet you never expected to get such a thorough answer. :lol:
     
  8. 2kooldad

    2kooldad New Member

    Messages:
    583
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Well EM....i think ABK is top notch an florida made the right choice in filling the job with him...he knows his stuff an if i have a question i can count on him for an honest strait forward answer with all the facts....plus i never ever follow the curve an always get myself out on a ledge...then i need facts an he's got em...ABK...i never have charged for getting bees...i just want the bees...one day i will but im not trained enuff to be putting homes back together after i tear them apart...if i cant trap them out then i wont do it cause i couldn't patch what i tore apart...just my way of thinking...i just don't want the swat team rapeling from a helo down to taze me cause im getting some bees an i want to know what i have to do to comply with the rules when i am ready.
     
  9. Zookeep

    Zookeep Active Member

    Messages:
    1,252
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    this is my favorite part: · MB: Comments regarding need for training and insurance show that bee removal should be regulated as
    pest control. Then we could make rules that specifically address the training of bee removers. Also,
    suggests bee removers partner with pest control companies for training—could work as ID cardholders for
    purposes of getting trained. so he wants us to partner with the pest control guys to train them:lol: from what I have seen and the pest control companies I have talked with 99.9% of them would not have a clue how to live remove a hive of honeybees so how would they be able to train any1 in doing so
     
  10. Americasbeekeeper

    Americasbeekeeper New Member

    Messages:
    1,126
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MB is a PCO, I do not think it will be included as written, quite likely the opposite as was also discussed.
     
  11. 2kooldad

    2kooldad New Member

    Messages:
    583
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    A pest controll guy cant train me anyhow....i can do with bees what he wouldnt have a clue about an the part i need training in would have to come from a building contractor...sofits, drywall and basic house framing i would guess....ummmm...since im on the subject...what do you guy fix an not fix after you've done a job where you charged for it???
     
  12. ApisBees

    ApisBees Active Member

    Messages:
    2,060
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    That is an agreement between the home owner and the beekeeper. If you tell the home owner that you are cutting your way in to get to the bees and removing them and they are responsible to get the damage repaired after then that is what is expected of you. Having said that having a knowledge of how things are built and put together is an advantage in that you should be able to remove the bees doing the least amount of damage. or in a manner that results in the least expensive repairs. Drywall on the inside of a house is easier and cheaper to repair than it is to patch and repair stucco on the outside. Paint a room versus painting the outside of a house.
     
  13. Americasbeekeeper

    Americasbeekeeper New Member

    Messages:
    1,126
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Thank you all. Florida Bee College is coming quickly and they have asked for nominations for Master Beekeeper Beekeeper of the Year. Would you mind emailing Jeanette, Klopchin, jklopchin@ufl.edu and nominate me for the Master level master Beekeeper of the Year. It would not hurt to bombard her with one submission each. Thank you.
     
  14. ApisBees

    ApisBees Active Member

    Messages:
    2,060
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Thanks for your participation and support of the beekeepers on the forum Gary sent this to her.

    Hi Jeanette Klopchin

    I am not a beekeeper form Florida or the USA but as a beekeeper living and participating in the beekeeping community on the world wide web I have come to enjoy and respect the posts and comments of Gary VanCleef. He provides links to and incite into new research, discovery's and upcoming events and courses that are helpful in promoting bees and beekeeping. He should be recognized for his knowledge and participation in the online forums that reach the international beekeeping community. A wise choice for Master Beekeeper Beekeeper of the Year At the Florida Bee College would be Gary. I Keith Rae believe Gary represents what professional beekeepers should be about, sharing, informing and being accessible to members of the beekeeping community. I want to but my support behind the nomination of Gary VanCleeffor the honor of being named Master level master Beekeeper of the Year.

    Thanks Keith Rae
     
  15. HisPalette

    HisPalette New Member

    Messages:
    323
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Hey everyone, Don't know if this post goes here and feel free to move it if needed, admin... A family member forwarded this link to me and I an infuriated. I have been very tied up with the new baby Siberians, so if this is a duplicated topic my apologies...
    It is called Attack of the Honey Bees
    and it took place in Orlando, Florida - It aired the end of January on Animal Planet an MSN affiliate...
    Disgusting.
    This network ought to be notified?

    http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/vi...29rLWxpa2Utc2VuZCZhcD10cnVl&from=en-us_fblike

    Only to be surrounded by honey bees...What a blessing!
    That is the worse thing they could have done was spray insecticide to kill those bees. They were just fine before. Oh, whoops they did not show the before shots did they, ... They only showed the honey bees defending themselves when the renter tried to kill them and destroy the honey bee colony. This is the whole reason we educate proper care and removal of honey bees to young kids. This is a shame that they undo all we try to do by educating the public. After watching a major network put out a video like that - Shame on them! They did not get half of what they deserved!
    A beekeeper could have just come in and did a minor removal for 500 to 700 dollars. Infuriating!
    Taking this to the bee forum...
     
  16. ApisBees

    ApisBees Active Member

    Messages:
    2,060
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Puting this video out is exactly what they should have done the public need to see the consequences of trying to fix the problem by themselves to save money. We should have a link to this video to send to those that think we are charging to much. Also the consequences of killing the bees but not removing the honey,pollen and comb. In this video the landloard thought he could fix the problem with a $10 can of pestacide and cost him a few thousand. Some need to be educated the hard way, others learn from their bad choices. A renter who has seen this will question the approach the landlords takes to combat the issue of bees in a wall.

    Question related to trap outs in a case where the bees are inaccessible and you remove the bees and let the bees rob out the honey, how attractive is the pollen and wax to the SHB and it's larva?
     
  17. HisPalette

    HisPalette New Member

    Messages:
    323
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    This is true Apis Bee, I am glad you brought up that point. It definitely shows what not to do.
    I did not see the complete airing, and I should hope that they followed up with that point of not exterminating.
    It was like that roof top apiary that one of the networks aired 6 months ago...when the reporter was a doofus and got stung on the nose. I was cheering for the bees. I am not fond of all that "terror" they put in the minds of the public.
     
  18. 2kooldad

    2kooldad New Member

    Messages:
    583
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Trapouts make the hive weak as your waiting for the last of the bees to come out...the last tree i trapped out had SHB larva falling off the combs an dropping to the ground via the hole in the tree....humdreds of them
     
  19. 2kooldad

    2kooldad New Member

    Messages:
    583
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Opps hit the sent button to quick...hundreds of SHB larva fell out...the hive is too weak to defend the stores an the SHB larva take over on the comb...thats what happends in my neck of the woods (florida)