Double trapout dilemma

Discussion in 'Swarms, Cut outs, and Trap outs' started by markles, Feb 9, 2012.

  1. markles

    markles New Member

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    Hello, I'm once again looking for some advice - this time on a "double trapout" that I'm starting tomorrow.[attachment=2:1oao8zon]Cindy-Trapout-1.jpg[/attachment:1oao8zon][attachment=1:1oao8zon]Cindy-Trapout-2.jpg[/attachment:1oao8zon][attachment=0:1oao8zon]Cindy-Trapout-3.jpg[/attachment:1oao8zon]
    The two colonies are in the ceiling void of an old outbuilding at diagonally opposite corners. Inside the room there is evidence of fighting as the floor is covered in dead bees. The owner wants to fumigate both colonies so I thought I'd get two full boxes out and see if I can save most of them.
    The first colony is fairly straight forward and fitting a cone will be a simple matter. The second colony is a different story and I'm going to have to fit a board over the exposed masonary and timber with a new entrance in it in the location of the old entrance. By doing this I'll have something to fix the cone and backing board to later. The dilemma - my intention is to fit the cone (and place the trapout hive with eggs, brood and food) at the first colony and the new entrance board on colony two tomorrow. I'll leave the cone off this second colony for a day or two so that I can be sure that the bees from colony one don't revert to this entrance. If they do I'll simply close the entrance and trap both colonies at position one, if not then I'll place the second cone and trapout hive at this second entrance. The ceiling void is common to both but I dont believe it is only one colony in the ceiling. I think I'm going to have to fix the second cone.
    Am I on the right track or do you think there is a better way of doing this?
    Thanks and regards to all.
     

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  2. PerryBee

    PerryBee New Member

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    Those roof-corner jobs don't make for pretty trap-outs. Getting the cones on is a royal pain. I am guessing I would do this as two seperate trap-outs. If there are two seperate but interconnected colonies, I would not close off one entrance and force those bees to travel through the other colony to exit.

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  3. markles

    markles New Member

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    Thanks for that Perry. Nice pictures, thank goodness mine aren't as high up as that.
    I'm pretty sure I'm going to end up doing seperate trapouts. I'm just not so sure on the best timing though - do I do simultaneous trapouts or, do the second once the first is under way and settled down a bit?
     
  4. barry42001

    barry42001 New Member

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    I would think, considering the nature of the bees your working with, probably one at a time and a bit of time before starting the other. Unless the stories about recruiting bee from other hives in defense of the single colony are fairy tales.
     
  5. markles

    markles New Member

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    Hello, an update on the double trap-out I’m busy with. I watched the two colonies on and off for a couple of days and decided that there were two separate ones and to do them at the same time. I made up a cover plate with a new entrance in it and fitted it to the back colony a couple of days before the actual trap-out to let them get used to it and, filled all the openings that seemed to be in use under the corrugated iron sheeting.[attachment=1:2y4dvop0]Front-cone---Cindy.jpg[/attachment:2y4dvop0] [attachment=0:2y4dvop0]Back-cone---Cindy.jpg[/attachment:2y4dvop0]Yesterday morning I placed the two hives, with brood and eggs, and fitted the cones. I couldn’t get the hives as close to the cone as I would have liked but decided it would have to do. Today things have progressed nicely with the front colony (5 frame nuc) and there are a fair number of bees in the box. The back one was a different story and the bees were exiting the cone and going back in some holes that I hadmissed under the corrugated iron sheeting. They also didn’t like the gap between the roof and the cone so I rolled up some cardboard and stuffed it in the gap (see photo) to give them a ladder. This immediately made a huge difference. I also filled all the openings with steel wool and gap filler and they now have no way back to the old hive. The eggs (and maybe some of the brood) probably aren’t viable anymore as there were not a lot of bees in the box last night. With all the gaps sealed and the addition of the ladder this box is filling up nicely now so I’ll give it a couple of days and check for queen cells – fairly sure I’m going to have to introduce some new eggs.
     

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  6. PerryBee

    PerryBee New Member

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    Looking good Markles! :thumbsup:

    Sounds like # 1 is well under way and like you mentioned, keep an eye on # 2 for a day or so and see if the frame you have in there was viable. If not, maybe add another if you have any to spare, just to keep them there.

    Well done, and thanks for taking the time to take pics and share them. :mrgreen:
     
  7. efmesch

    efmesch Active Member

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    From your picture, the building with the 2 families looks as if the roof is a simple one. Could the hives be accessed from the inside? If so, a bee vacuum could make the whole process a lot easier and faster: vacuum up the bees, put them in the outside hives you've set up, take and tie the combs into frames and place them with the bees. After a few days of collecting any straglers that can't enter the building, take the "new" hives and move them away to a new location (at least 5 miles away).
    Of course, there could be an inside ceiling and I'm way off course and my suggested option is out of the question. :dontknow:
     
  8. G3farms

    G3farms New Member

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    Looks good and putting in a ladder for them to cross over on was a great idea that works wonders.

    keep us posted on the outcome.
     
  9. markles

    markles New Member

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    Hello, thanks for the comments and encouragement – I will report back on progress, good or bad. Efmesch, there is a ceiling (see post #1) and unfortunately the owner isn’t interested in doing a cut-out and repairs. It was either this or let her exterminate them. The building was/is a dark-room for film development – remember those days?
    Cheers for now.
     
  10. efmesch

    efmesch Active Member

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    Gotcha--loud and clear. I guess I read too fast to digest the ceiling. :oops:
    The owner will have to grant you ample time with your "project" to allow all brood to hatch out and leave and for the reserves inside to get robbed out, as you finish the project.
    Eventually, wax moths and SHB will finish up the remainders. But I see you have it all planned out and under control. :p
    A dark room? Wow, that's ancient history. Belongs in one of those internet mailings of "...Do You remember when...?
     
  11. markles

    markles New Member

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    Hello, just a quick update. Day 11 of my double trap-out yesterday and as I had "caught" more bees than expected in the 5 frame nuc on the front colony I decided to change this hive for a full deep brood box and check both for queen cells. I first swopped out the hive on the front colony and noticed that they had drawn queen cells but that they had been opened (looked like they had hatched) :confused: Anyway, I went and fetched another frame with eggs from one of my nearby hives and they settled back down into the new hive quickly. I also checked the back colony and they had five queen cells (capped) so I closed them up and let them get on with it. Both new colonies had about 4 frames of comb (including the donated frame) so that is all good.
    My only explanation for the opened queen cells (4 off) is that I must have trapped a queen on her mating or swarming flight. I'm probably way off mark on this. Any thoughts?
    Cheers for now.
    Mark
     
  12. efmesch

    efmesch Active Member

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    It looks as if the eggs and brood you placed in the first trap-out hive and thought weren't viable, WERE viable. Bees will easily take three day old larvae (in the absence of a queen) and raise them as queens. Those hatched queen cells are probably from them (or from the first one out tearing down the others). Such queens are generally considered to be inferior, not having been raised toward royalty from the time the eggs hatched. But they can still fight it out amongst themselves and lead swarms from the mother hive.
    You didn't report whether you saw any virgin queens among the bees but did put in another frame with eggs. Assuming that this time there were only eggs, you might get new queens raised from eggs. That would be good.
    However, if even one previous queen is still around, they won't build new QCs.
    I would recommend checking for any queens (virgins?) in the hive and if you find any, eliminate them so that new queens would be started from the eggs you introduced. Then you could choose the queen cell you want to keep to produce the new reigning queen for the hive. You might want to consider having the first hive provide a queen for the second trapout.
    Let's hear what others have to say on your dilemma.
     
  13. PerryBee

    PerryBee New Member

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    A snip "they had been opened (looked like they had hatched) :confused: "
    Did these cells still have a flap on the end of them or did they look more like they had been opened through the sides of the cells?
     
  14. Iddee

    Iddee New Member

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    An egg hatches on day 3. A queen can be made from a 3 day old larva. Meaning the decision can be made on day 6. You checked on them 11 days later, or day 17. Queens normally emerge on day 16. It sounds like everything is going fine. Look for new eggs in a week or two.
     
  15. markles

    markles New Member

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    Hello, thanks for the comments - most appreciated.
    I didn't see any queen/s in the front colony. Because I was transferring frames from the nuc to a full I didn't "shake" the bees off them (wanted to transfer as many bees with the frames as possible). When all frames were in the brood box I just turned the nuc upside down on top of the brood box and emptied the bees out.
    The opened queen cells were opened on the end (not the side) with perfect round holes (no flap).
    It sounds like I didn't need to put in another frame but I thought that beyond three day old eggs there was no chance of a new queen being made. Live and learn - isnt it fantastic!
    I can hear you all cussing me for not posting photos and appologise for that. I find it difficult enough to juggle all the bee stuff without having to worry about my much prized camera.
    Thanks and good luck with the fast approaching flow.
     
  16. PerryBee

    PerryBee New Member

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    Thanks for keeping us informed. While pictures are nice, I recognize that it often not convenient to drag them along and take them out, etc.
    We appreciate the ones you do post. Please continue to let us know how both of these turn out, good information is being presented here! :thumbsup:
     
  17. markles

    markles New Member

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    Hello all. Day 19 of this trap-out and thing seem to be going along nicely with lots of foraging (pollen and nectar) from both hives.
    Question, the cone of the front colony had about 20 larvae wriggling around inside it when I first arrived to check today. I went home for my camera and by the time I got back there were only a few. I’m assuming these are wax moth larvae – can anyone confirm that from my not so good photos?
    [attachment=1:2915sj1p]Wax-moth-lavae-1.jpg[/attachment:2915sj1p]
    [attachment=0:2915sj1p]Wax-moth-lavae-2.jpg[/attachment:2915sj1p]
    I’m also wondering what its going to look like inside the old hive when I take the cone off in ten days time, assuming they are wax moth. Perhaps I should take it off early.
     

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  18. Iddee

    Iddee New Member

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    My guess, and it is a guess, is SHB. Wax moth larva don't leave the hive, SHB do. Wax moth multiple slowly, SHB rapidly. After only 19 days and they are leaving the hive, I would think they are SHB.
     
  19. markles

    markles New Member

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    Thanks, good call Iddee. I just googled them and your bang on. Should I be worried about the close proximity of the trap box (hive) even though it above the cone (I assume that the larvae will move downwards)?
     
  20. Iddee

    Iddee New Member

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    I would watch it like a daughter's first boyfriend. "VERY CLOSELY"