Drones for Mating

Discussion in 'General Beekeeping' started by brooksbeefarm, Jul 20, 2013.

  1. brooksbeefarm

    brooksbeefarm New Member

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    Don't remember seeing this discussed? Are drones from a laying worker hive as good for breeding as drones produced by a queen??? If so,why don't queen producers have laying worker hives in there mating yards? or do they?:???: Jack
     
  2. riverrat

    riverrat New Member

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    Wow good question. I never thought about that. I would venture to guess a laying worker not being a fully developed queen would produce drones of an inferior quality. But then again a drone is produced from an unfertlized egg. Are a laying workers ovaries fully developed? Going to have to watch this thread just may learn something today afterall.:thumbsup:
     

  3. Daniel Y

    Daniel Y New Member

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    Drones from laying workers woudl be just as capable of mating as a drone produced from the infertile egg of a queen. The problem begins with the situation within the hive and the source of that egg.

    Drones from a queen come from single bee that can be observed and evaluated. While the genetic traits of the workers can be varied from worker to worker. Btu lets say a breeder that is interested in mating massive numbers of queens and is not as concerend with quality as they are quantitity. a laying worker hive could be a source of excessive drones. for a short period of time.

    Absence of a queen in a colony and the presence of layign workers is the final gasp of a dying colony. and will only happen for a very short time. Drones are coslty for the hive to rear. a dwindling population of bees will attempting to keep up with the demand of an ever increasingly difficult brood population. this is a road that only leads to collapse. So in effect you would have to sacrafice an entire colony or colonies in order to intentionally create laying worker hives.

    There are other ways to produce additoinal drones other than complete destruction of a colony. I suppose that a breeder coudl take a portion of a colony and make it intentionaly queenles to the point it produces layign workers. but I do not think that the timing is all that reliable.

    I have heard it mentined by some breeders that Drone managment can and often is more difficult than rearing queens in the first place.
     
  4. Jacobs

    Jacobs New Member

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  5. efmesch

    efmesch Active Member

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    While the article indicates that the author did a lot of careful and complicated work in this study, there are many questions that remain to be answered. For example: How could he determine that smaller drones from the DCA's were raised in worker cells?
    Without having made any studies on the subjsect (and therefore my opinion is of very limited value), I would think that smaller drones would be at a competitive disadvantage when it comes to succesfully mating with virgin queens under natural circumstances.
     
  6. Daniel Y

    Daniel Y New Member

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    I think smaller size could possibly wirk either way. a smaller body with the same size wings could result in it being faster than other drones and more successful being the first to catch the queen. The possible disadvantage could cover a wide range. everything from efect to its fertility to it abilty to even mate once it does catch a queen.
     
  7. Crofter

    Crofter New Member

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    If it had been an evolutionary advantage to mate with smaller drones I think it would be happening. Nature does the ultimate of cost/benefit analysis of difference in form. We sometimes have a hard time making it mesh with our human evaluations though. The peacock's tail would seem like an extravagant and useless adornment but it obviously pays dividends.
     
  8. Ray

    Ray Member

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    To follow efmesch's post: How many full size drones were layed by worker bees? Is there a Darwinian advantage to having laying workers in a queen-right hive?
     
  9. brooksbeefarm

    brooksbeefarm New Member

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    The small drone discussion got me thinking, that mating with queens would (or wouldn't?) produce smaller bees and would work on the small cell foundation? Isn't the small cell foundation a tool some are using to fight varroa mites by trying to produce smaller bees? I haven't read up on the foundation with smaller cells, so this may be a dumb question.:???: Jack
     
  10. ApisBees

    ApisBees Active Member

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    The size of the bees is effected by the size of cells the eggs are laid in. Because the queen that has no sperm to fertalize the eggs and the laying worker are trying to lay eggs that will become workers to advance the colony, they are laying eggs in worker cells. It is the fact that the eggs are not fertilized that they will be drones. the reason they are small drones is because of the restricted space that they were allowed to develop in.
     
  11. pistolpete

    pistolpete New Member

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    I've read a lot of opinions on the net about small cell foundation. The only conclusion to be drawn from it all is that there is no scientific evidence that small cells do anything other than prevent worker bees from growing to their natural size. Lots of anecdotal evidence that small cell will cure everything from mites to the common cold though. I think it's right up there with foot binding in the category of silly ideas.
     
  12. Crofter

    Crofter New Member

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    I am skeptical too, though there may be some circumstantial connection effect. Power of suggestion has been known to sharpen ones perception and memory. That said, sometimes a very subtle result such as a smaller average bee larvae not surviving as high a mite load, thus leading to its own and the mites demise, could skew the mites breeding success rate. Watch real close on such happenings because there might well be an associated lowering in production of the bees: many proponents of small cell also promote unlimited brood space. It is easy to deceive ourselves unintentionally.
     
  13. pistolpete

    pistolpete New Member

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  14. Ray

    Ray Member

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    I hope we can get back to drone size and not drift into how "silly" some of us are.
     
  15. brooksbeefarm

    brooksbeefarm New Member

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    Lets say the queen in your best hive died, and it became a laying worker hive. Would you or wouldn't you? have drones with the genes to produce a queen like there mother, since the drones don't have a father, but do have the grandfather??. Jack
     
  16. pistolpete

    pistolpete New Member

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    You wouldn't.

    When a queen lays an unfertilized egg to produce a drone, the drone is genetically identical to the queen. The genes of the queen are 1/2 her mother and 1/2 her father. When a laying worker lays an egg, the resulting drone is genetically identical to that worker. The laying worker is not genetically identical to the hive queen, but 1/2 the queen and 1/2 the drone(s) she mated with. So in terms of perpetuating desired traits, laying worker drones are not the way to go.

    Ray: Apologies for the digression. If you read the article that was linked early in the thread, it clearly states that small drones have a reproductive disadvantage vs. large drones.
     
  17. Ray

    Ray Member

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    "Ray: Apologies for the digression."
    I was trying to avoid an argument over my 'silly' way of beehaving

    ​Drones are Haploid, which mean they have only one set of genes, their sex cells are identical.
    The Queen and Worker's are Diploid, they have two sets of genes. Their sex cells are one half of a mixed set of genes. Meaning that the unfertilized eggs of a laying worker or the queen are not genetically identical.
    Decades ago, in a high school genetics class; the teacher explained it this way.
    Lay out two suits of a deck of card, one suit above the other. Ace above the ace, two above the two ...etc. Exchange some cards of the same numerical value, and there you have two sets of sex cells.

    ​Try this link:
    http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/genetics.html
     
  18. Daniel Y

    Daniel Y New Member

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    The mother has the genes of her father. and the queen is not the mother of these drones. Workers are only half the genetic makeup of the mother. and not necessarily the better half. These drones will then mate with a queen that will mate with 19 additional drones and only have an impact on 5% of the pending colony. So half of a 5% impact makes at best a 2.5% genetic impatc on the resutling colony. 10% is what is generally considered significant. 2.5% is nearly non existent. I suppose you could produce 500 queens form this mix and find the 10 or so that carry the traits of the original queen. Chances are great they will not exist though.
     
  19. Daniel Y

    Daniel Y New Member

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    No they are not. I made this mistake when I first started looking at bee genetic. there is a clone present in bee genetics. this was instantly obvious to me. I simply misplaced where it is as you have here. the clone is fondu in the sperm of the drone. a sperm is the clone of the drone.

    ANy worker is hafl the genetics of the queen. and the combination of genes that make up that half are practically infinite.
     
  20. brooksbeefarm

    brooksbeefarm New Member

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    Then the laying workers drone has 1/2 of it's queen mothers genes (the desired queen) wouldn't some of her genes be passed on to the the virgin queen it mated with and show up later on? I'm asking because in my cattle herd, i started with 1/2 Holstein and 1/2 Angus for cows (cows are horned, bulls are polled),and for at least a dozen years(or more?) i have bought polled bulls and kept heifers out of them for cows that are polled. So after more than a dozen generations all my calves are polled now, But, like this year(and other years) i have one calve out of 15 showing horns?? I have read that genes can lay dormant for years only to show up later on.I know we are talking bugs, not mammals, and this genetic thing is way over my head, but it seems to me that these good genes can be passed on?:???: Jack