Finger joint machine

Discussion in 'Building plans, blueprints, and finished projects' started by cheezer32, Sep 8, 2013.

  1. cheezer32

    cheezer32 New Member

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    Many of you have seen or know that I have had a finger joint machine in the past. Due to many people asking about this machine I am contemplating selling this machine to the public. What I need help with is a price, I haven't seen anything publicly sold that is similar to compare it to, so I want to see roughly what you guys were thinking. I'm just needed ballpark estimates on what you think it's worth.
    The machine can be seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9Sti5hf0Uc if you need other details to make your decisions let me know!!! Thanks you!
     
  2. ApisBees

    ApisBees Active Member

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    $29.95 I will take a 1000.
    No being serious it is not what the beekeeper is willing to pay but what the cost to build and produce. 6 - 1" cutters, 18" machined shaft, 6 pillow block bearings, 8 connecting rod ends. minimum 2 hp motor maybe larger, magnetic switch, steel; angle, tubing, plate, and round stock. This is not something you put together in an afternoon I would expect it would take a good 3 days and then you would still need to paint it. A guy with your skills in design and fabricating should not be giving you talents away for free so charge well for your time. A general rule of thumb for pricing in the manufacturing sector is. Cost of materials plus labour which equals the cost of materials and add a % for shop overhead and profit margin which comes out to about the cost of materials.
    Or the simple formula of cost of materials X 3.
    I have worked building and modifying bee manufacturing equipment so have a good idea of what is involved.
    http://www.beekeepingforums.com/newreply.php?p=173940&noquote=1
     

  3. The Bee Guy

    The Bee Guy New Member

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    I use a box joint jig that cuts 9 boards at a time.
    I can cut joints in both the long and short boards in a little less than 10 minutes for 4 boxes.
    I give $242.00 plus shipping for it.
     
  4. efmesch

    efmesch Active Member

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    Maybe I'm out of place posting on this thread because I haven't the slightest notion of what to suggest as a price nor am I a potential customer---BUT, I gotta hand it to you--that's a beautiful machine and your short video of how it works was encouraging for anyone who is into building his/her own hive boxes. I think that, with the proper advertising, you should have a good market for the machine. Forty years ago I would have stood on line to buy one.
    Here's wishing you success with the venture. :thumbsup:
    P.S. I thought they were called rabbit joints ("finger joint machine" makes me think about counting my fingers and their joints before and after using it.:lol:)
     
  5. Ray

    Ray Member

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    They are 'Box Joints'.
    A 'Finger Joint' was used to splice lengths of wood and looked like miniature pie slices stacked up.
    ​A 'Rabbet Joint' has a single 'step'(aka rabbet) cut out of the width of a board, attached to a similar board at 90 degrees and when assembled only one half of the end grain of the wood is exposed.
     
  6. Capt44

    Capt44 New Member

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    Difference in a box joint and rabbet joint (Pictures)

    Ray has a very good explanation of the two joints.
    Here are a couple of pictures Box joint image.jpg Rabbet Joint.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

  7. Daniel Y

    Daniel Y New Member

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    Nice machine with some serious weaknesses as far as establishing it's value.

    IT is a gang cut that will increase productivity for a small scale producer. not anything for a box supplier that would be looking for equipment costing int eh $20k range. You are the home work shop and the mid to upper end. I woudl palce you machine in the $2k arena. And that is provided it meets some quality requirements. Basically what can yo utell me about it's its accuracy and longevity. Now keep in mind I am placing it in the 2K range by simply my opinion in where ti falls for what it is and what it does. and I would expect to be looking at prices in that range if I where looking at similar name brand manufactured woodworking machines. But that is not what you have. That it is home made alone makes it nearly useless. Where is any support to keep it running. You would still need to satisfy quite a bit of quality concerns. How accurate is it and why. what can I expect form it's longevity. but bottom line it will eventually break down and where will the support to keep it running be.

    IN the end you have a very nice machine that you wanted bad enough to build it. and you did well. but that is about the beginning and end of it's worth.

    It is lacking one serious feature in the production arena. and that is it only does one board at a time. This alone drops 90% of it's potential value. It also reveals one of the weaknesses of a home built tool. Stinks I know but production means production and you really must think of everything. You have here a production oriented machine that just does not hit all the bases at worst. no insult just the way it is.

    For a home built machine that could be worth $2000 with the additional reliability and support. I woudl seriously say you should be looking for $250 to $300 for this machine. sorry I know that stings. But it is my genuine, experienced woodworker and knowing the concerns of other woodworkers opinion. I have 12 years experience selling tools and equipment to them so it is not a topic I have just opinion about. With having said that. I find no offense in whether you choose to accept or reject it. It is only opinion after all.

    In all I see you have taken a serious effort to make this machine. I think it deserved a serious response. even if you don't agree with it.

    Final word. ask what you want for it. it's the only one of it's kind. maybe someone will find it worth it. You never know.

    I know I seem to be all over with my comment. That is because it is a home made item. and frankly is worth whatever you say it is. Here is what I do in that case because I make a lot of hand made stuff. I like what I make. that is why I make it. and there is a limit to my like. I then look for a dollar amount that reflects my desire for it. IF someone likes it more than I do. they will pay my price. But that price is always clearly in my mind the amount of money I want more than I want my creation. I hope that makes since and you use it. It woks very well for me.

    I have a one of a kind custom wood writing pen made from one of the rarest woods in the world. I am willing to give it up for $2000. Yes I like it lots'. I am looking for someone that likes it even more. I will never budge an inch on that price. it is a really nice pen. Will I ever find a buyer for it? I thought I had once. But that customer told me they are really not interested in anything priced lower than $5000. I told him I would be very happy to let him pay $5000 for it. He just smiled. To some, price is everything. And it is a very difficult thing to set.
     
  8. cheezer32

    cheezer32 New Member

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    Thanks for the post daniely I was deffinately not thinking anywhere near 20k, but just a tad higher than your 2k price. Yes it only does one board at a time, but homemade it a term I wouldn't use, I prefer sturdy and efficient. It's simplicity is what makes it useful, there's isn't a million parts to go wrong with it, I've cut many tens if thousands of board with the one in the video and never had to adjust or fix anything. The cutter are solid half inch bases with indexable inserts. It takes a little "shimming" work to get the exact for you desire at first but once set. I never had to mess with it. I used a micrometer to measure my cuts not a tape measure so I would say its very accurate. The wood grows/shrinks more with the tempature or humidity change than my cuts were off with this machine.

    As for production you would be amazed how many boxes you can run through this machine, I notched around 150 boxes and hour with ease. It isn't automation, but for a small to medium shop or even a commercial who makes tere own equipment it is well worth the investment.

    i don't say this to rebuttle or say your points wrong, everything is worth somthing different to everyone, and I think you have a good argument with what you said.
     
  9. ApisBees

    ApisBees Active Member

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    The Bee Guy and Daniel are being a little harsh toward Cheezer.
    Bee Guy if your jig that can produce box joints at 4 supers in 10 minutes (that is 24 supers per hr) is worth $242.00, his box joint cutter at 60 supers an hr is worth a lot more. In a market where time is money 1 1/2 times more product produced every hr. It wont take long to pay for the added production.
    Daniel with your background in tools you should appreciate specialty equipment designed to simplify and speed production. Manufacturing is based on specialized custom built single use machines to speed and simplify the manufacturing process. As far as breakdowns and repairs you mentioned. If you look at the design of the machine he built, any parts that needed to be replaced is readily attainable thru a local industrial supply, bearing, or motor repair shop. It is the simplicity in operation and design that is the true beauty of this machine. The ends cut with this machine would be constant and accurate in their fit whether the piece was cut today last week or last month. The only time you may have a shift in the cut is when the shaft is pulled to remove the cutters for sharpening and the shaft is not in the identical place as before when reassembled. Using 6 different cutters to cut the box joint the blades would not need to be removed very often for sharpening.
    With the box joint cutter we used in the commercial manufacturing of hives. Our output was 1000 pieces an Hr (250 supers)
     
  10. cheezer32

    cheezer32 New Member

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    I don't take it as harsh, just honest opinions.

    Maybe you were just using a random number, but you can easily cut over 100 boxes an hour, I have done over 200 an hour frequently.

    btw thanks for the input everyone.
     
  11. Daniel Y

    Daniel Y New Member

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    Apis, I am not being harsh. I will try to explain why.

    At $300 a machine that can cut on e board one end at a time is reasonable if I expect to make 1000 hives at a hobbiest small operation sort of level. It will cost me 4 cents per for 8000 cuts and require that I place 8000 ends into the machine.
    To me that is a straight up fair deal.

    At $2000 plus the numbers increase to 80,000 cuts still one at a time to still fall into the 4 cents per cut cost. it iwll take far longer and you are now looking at additional maintenance costs to even keep the machine running through all that. You are also looking at the very real probability that i wll be paying an employee to operate it inceasing the actual cost dramatically. Now consider that if I am going to pay someone to feed blanks into a machine it is pretty much guaranteed i will not be interested in anything that must be fed one board at a time. I will be looking for something that accepts more like 10 boards at a time. reduce that repetitive factor back to 8000. This is why that critical feature is so important. Everything about the machine may very well be a 2K machine. but nobody thinking about needing a 2k machine is likely to want it because it will only handle one board at a time one end at a time. Anyone that will not have an issue about feeding one board at a time is going to have a hard time considering paying 2k for it.

    In all it has a serious lack for the higher end price that makes it a bad deal for teh buyer. and it is to good for the lower price making it a bad deal for the seller. Get the entire desin at one level or the other. in this case one additional feature would have put it into that 2k price range with my full agreement.

    Now I have done repetative woodworking. I am very aware of the difference between 8000 reps and 80,000. I have done a 1000 piece production on a couple of occasions. I will just say this. the repetition boredom, dozing off, wondering mind and attention, aches and pains reach injury inducing levels. and that is at 1000 reps. You sell this machine to someone for 2k and they attempt to produce enough boxes to warrant that cost and it will be in the trash within a week. I can't imagine anyone sticking with it to make the cost justified.

    Now can Cheezer locate on aspiring beekeepr that has an expensive lesson to learn? I don't think I am helping that cause, but hey nobody listens to me anyway.
     
  12. ApisBees

    ApisBees Active Member

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    Boxes or are you talking sides? 200 supers that is 800 pieces or 1600 ends in an hour, that works out to 4.5 seconds per side. There is calculable feed rates for saw blades based on saw blade diameter, blade RPM, number of teeth, the thickness of material being cut, and whether the cut is a rip, cross, or end cut. At 200 supers per hr I would think you are far exceeding the cutter's cut rate. Timing off your posted video, timed at about 15 seconds per board.
     
  13. cheezer32

    cheezer32 New Member

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    Yes 200 an hour, the video is much slower than what I actually ran the machine at, I did put a larger motor and upped the rpm after the video however. I ran it quick though, I would say an average person running average speed would do about 100-125 full boxes an hour.
     
  14. Ray

    Ray Member

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    I find the numbers on the large size, but I think it's time to move on with the post. Without a Time-study and a stopwatch, nobody will know the true numbers. IMO; ApisBees in post #2, has the formula " cost of materials X 3".

     
  15. Hawk

    Hawk New Member

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    I would expect to pay in the $300-$400 range for the machine as shown in the video.
     
  16. tecumseh

    tecumseh New Member

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    nice video and thanks for sharing.

    a snip from Daniel who seems to know quite a bit about these sorts of things....
    To some, price is everything. And it is a very difficult thing to set.

    known in the marketing world as price discovery and yes it is a very difficult problem to unwind. having said that I will also suggest that the direct cost of building the machines is only a minor part of placing a price on this kind of machine. it has long been known that in the real world there is little to no relationship between the cost of producing some item and it's end price. the primary economic concerns would be breadth of market (how many potential buyers would you have for such a machine) and how much might this product improve labor input <often time it is the more effective use of labor that gives you the best idea of what you should charge for such a machine since you are essentially exchange capital for labor input.
     
  17. Zookeep

    Zookeep Active Member

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    I have used woodworking tools all my life and the best 1s are the most versatile, meaning its good for more then just 1 thing, theat is very good for making hive box ends but for 2 grand i would want more out of it, I think Hawk is right on the price and maybe $400 a bit high
     
  18. ApisBees

    ApisBees Active Member

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    And that is where the problem lies zookeeper the cost of the motor and switch will be greater than $400 the 5 1" cutters will be another $500 shafts bearings another $400 and you still have to buy the metal for the frame, cut, weld, and put it together. The machine that does just one thing doesn't show it's true value until it production capacity is needed to facilitate the job to be done.
     
  19. Daniel Y

    Daniel Y New Member

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    This is not a machine for a weekend warrior. Is is something that would go into a production shop where it is common to have dedicated machines.