First trap out

Discussion in 'Swarms, Cut outs, and Trap outs' started by Daniel Y, Aug 8, 2012.

  1. Daniel Y

    Daniel Y New Member

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    I put an ad on craig's list a couple of weeks ago offering to remove bees.
    Yesterday I got a call about bees in a house. When I got there the home owner told me it is the second time bees have taken up residence in this location. They are behind brick between the wall and a fireplace. The owner told me that the last colony was trapped out successfully.

    This time the opening is three holes in the mortar right in the corner where the chimney meets the wall and is only about 2 to 3 feet off the ground. Pretty easy except for it being in a corner.

    I hope to use a Hogan style trap out and lure the queen out as well. I may end up with an extra queen or three before it is all over. If so I may end up making up some nucs along the way.

    I had to come home and start building the trap out though so I am a bit behind on this one. I was already making up 3 new hives from free wood. I just don't have the bottom boards, inner covers and outer cover made for them. I also have no spare frames with foundation. I do have 5 empty frames but that is it.

    Any suggestions on how best to mount the entrance tunnel to the brick? For now I am thinking of putting anchors into the mortar that can later be drilled out and patched. The mortar is already a real mess. This is now the 2nd, 3rd and 4th holes that have opened up in it. Very old house and teh mortal needs to be chinked badly
     
  2. PerryBee

    PerryBee New Member

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    Instead of putting anchors into an already crumbly brickwork, you could probably just silicone the base of the cone directly to the brick. It might make it easier to conform to the shape you might have to use to mount it.
    Congrats on trying your first trap-out. I will follow with interest, this Hogan style system where the possibility of catching the queen intrigues me. I don't know if I have read of someone successfully doing one yet.
     

  3. blueblood

    blueblood New Member

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    Yeah, silicone is the way to go there. Slap some 2x4's together with plywood for bottom board and make a simple migratory lid for cover. Just skip the inner.

    Good luck and be sure to take some pics!
     
  4. gunsmith

    gunsmith New Member

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    Just make sure you support the bottom. If you rely on silicone to support the whole thing, it will give out when it gets a little weight on it.
     
  5. blueblood

    blueblood New Member

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    I mean silicone to be on cone/hogan apparatus only. I would make a stand with legs since it is so low..
     
  6. Daniel Y

    Daniel Y New Member

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    Thanks for the advice everyone. We went ahead and built a complete hive. bottom board inner cover and all. Mainly because I was in the process of building 3 of them already. That way it is done when it comes time to bring the bees home and I won't have to back track and set up the saws for all those different cuts again. Actually we cut the parts for all three hives and 2 nucs over the last two evenings.

    Since the hole is right in the very corner of the brick I am thinking of making the Tunnel (the part that attaches to the house. with an L shape leg so it can actually attach to both walls. I will take both screws and silicone and decide how to finally attach it once we get there.

    I already have it in mind to build a solid stand. No telling what all we will be stacking on it but I am thinking of starting with 7 to 8 frames for the bees and removing them as nucs if progress indicates that is the best course. I am having to wait for foundation to arrive.

    We will be building the tunnel and making up a deep box with a transition (the part that fits from the box to the tunnel) this afternoon. I also need to make the tunnel but do not plan to use it right away. I want to try and get the bees to rob out the honey from the wall. I am not real sure how well that works??? Will I need to eventually separate the hive from the wall to get them to treat the old hive as a place to rob?

    I was also thinking of making the tunnel a separate piece that can be screwed to the end of the transition inside the box when I am ready to empty the hive of bees.

    From what I have been reading the bees will tend to stay in the hive box when returning from foraging. Expand the hive into the box on their own etc. Btu I am not real clear on just how to get them to move stores etc to the new hive. My general goal in this direction is to cause the new hive to become strong while the old hive becomes weaker until the new one robs out the old. Just how to get there is a day to day strategy.

    Anyway any tips or trick as to how to get the bees from wall to hive is a big help right now. I hope to have the hive in place tomorrow. Sorry I don't have pics right now my camera dies a few months ago.
     
  7. blueblood

    blueblood New Member

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    Position the front of the box to touch the side of the cone base so they will walk on over to it when they realize they can no longer go in the original hole/entrance. Your trap box should have a frame of brood and eggs. I put a swipe or two of lemon grass oil on the front of the trap out box. In about 21 days the last of the old hive brood will be hatching and your new queen in the box should be getting ready to get to work herself. It could take up to 3 more weeks. When you see no bees coming out of the cone, take it off and let them rob the old hive out for a few days.
     
  8. Iddee

    Iddee New Member

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    Blueblood, he is not doing an Iddee trap. He's doing a Hogan trap. None of those things apply.
     
  9. efmesch

    efmesch Active Member

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    Maybe you could borrow a camera--it would be a shame not to record the event and share it with the forum.
     
  10. blueblood

    blueblood New Member

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    Iddee, I saw he "hoped" to use the Hogan method. But, in his 4th paragraph of thread #6, I took it that he is questioning the method. And, then I answered his question in paragraph 6 the best I know how, and that is with the cone method. Did you have any solutions for him in regards to the "Hogan" method? I don't.
     
  11. Iddee

    Iddee New Member

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    So far, Hogan is the only one I have read about having success with it. I'm still waiting for some others to make it work before I say anything. I'm sure somewhere out there there is a way to get the queen, but I'm not convinced it has been found yet.
     
  12. blueblood

    blueblood New Member

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    I would say it would be the best chance for her to move over but I agree with you on that one. I will probably always stick with the cone trap-out. Once I watched your demo on that, I was off like a rocket.
     
  13. Daniel Y

    Daniel Y New Member

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    The Hogan trap is going to fit. We placed the transition last night and are letting the bees get used to it.
    We will place a 10 frame deep body to the transition tomorrow morning. I hope to get there early before to many bees are flying.

    I am not completely certain of my strategy at that point. I was reading Zookeeps attempt to capture a queen that started last May. Eventually ending in success today. IN looking at it it seems his eventual success came from pushing the old queen into absconding into a box she could not escape.

    Nifty little trick but nearly impossible to determine if anything specific lead to the success in the end.

    For now I am thinking I will add a frame of open brood in the hopes of luring the queen out quickly. Since that is not all that reliable I will also add teh cone sooner in the attempt to push the queen toward absconding sooner. Failing that I will also give the bees in the trap the resources to rear a new queen.

    Once the colony is trapped out I will then set the hive so it can rob out the old hive. Time is running short to accomplish this much but I think I can shave off quite a bit over what Zookeep did by adding the cone much earlier. In fact I am thinking of just starting the trap with the cone on.
     
  14. Zookeep

    Zookeep Active Member

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    the Hogen trap didnt work for me I used (after 3 rounds of frames of brood) a setup where the queen would be trapped in a upper brood box when she absconds, I spent 9 to 10 weeks on the removal and I would not do it this way again, I think Hogens might work on a hive thats in a small confined hive area, if the queen you are after has a large brood area she just has no need to come all the way out to what you set up, granted I ended up with 25 pulled frames and almost as many filled with honey and pollen, also in the end after I changed my approach I ended up with 3 nine inch brood boxes full of bees and 2 hives out of it, it was not due to Hogens method.
    .
     
  15. Daniel Y

    Daniel Y New Member

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    Zookeep, even though I am using the tunnel going directly into a box. I plan to add the cone to the tunnel almost from the get go. No bees will return. I am hoping to push the queen to abscond sooner.

    I actually wrote a time line from your post. You added the cone on 7-8 and the queen absconded on 8-10. I am assuming it was the weakening of the hive that eventually caused the queen to come out.

    As I said one case it not much to go on but it was successful in the end.

    So what I am going to do is make my best guess at what really worked out of all the things you tried. I will attempt to lure the queen out with brood only once. I might get lucky and get the queen quickly that way. If that does not work in 24 to 48 hours I will install a cone on the tunnel and reduce the population of the hive as quickly as possible. It is my thinking that the depopulation of the hive will then motive the queen to abscond just as you did. I am just hoping it will happen in closer to the 30 days it took you from the time you added the cone.
     
  16. Daniel Y

    Daniel Y New Member

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    The deep is in place with 3 frames of drawn comb. there is just a bit of capped brood in that comb because I could not find much of anything in my hive that did not have at least some brood. I also made up a med super of frames with foundation and set it on top. That is the best I can do for frames until my order of foundation arrives next week.

    I will say that if you are worried about having the nerve to work with bees. Just try this trick once. You will know if you can handle it or not. Once the tunnel is closed off you are living in a huge swarm of bees. We stuck around long enough to know the bees had found the new entrance and where fanning the other home. I figure there will be some bees searching for the door for the rest of the day. we will go back later this afternoon to double check they are orienting to the new entrance.
    We did manage to fine a couple of small holes during this searching for the door period. It is a real good time to locate any leaks in the wall. There was one hole in my caulk job that was allowing one bee in at a time. I closed all these up and the bees started finding the entrance fairly quickly after that. I saw no indication of any other openings but will keep checking.

    I am hoping to add a frame of brood Sunday afternoon and we will know if we are going to get the queen by Monday afternoon. I am going to add the cone on Sunday as well. I would have put it on today but am worried that will be to much interference all at once. I will give them a couple of days to accept the trap as an extension of their hive. Hopefully this will not cause them to be as agitated when they are not able to return to the wall.

    I suppose it is all up to luck and territorial queen now.
     
  17. efmesch

    efmesch Active Member

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    Daniel, you are thinking like a bee---good for you. You should meet with success (relatively) quickly. Not allowing the bees to return to the queen from the outset puts things on a time schedule---As the brood she has emerges and eventually is inadeuate to attend to any new brood, she'll stop laying in the inside frames and look to moving "outside" to be back with her family and doing what she does best.
     
  18. Daniel Y

    Daniel Y New Member

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    We went and looked at the trap yesterday afternoon. Three frames are covered in bees. Also looking at the empty cells we found eggs. We did not find the queen. It may be that she came out on Sunday and filled any cells she found and then went back. It may be that when I pulled these frames on Saturday I failed to see the eggs in them. I am known to do that but am more certain I didn't because I was very careful to examine the cells carefully. Still you don't know what you don't see. I was working without a veil in order to see the eggs and took a sting to my neck. had to put the veil on which made it impossible to see eggs after that. I do know that some eggs where still upright or leaning like they are only two days old at the very least. I know this afternoon there could not be an upright egg laid by our queen in those cells.

    We installed the cone and hopefully the queen will make a repeat performance.

    We also put 5 more med frames with foundation in the box. this makes a total of 8 frames for them to start working with. I am starting to think this may not be a huge colony.

    I am also wondering if we should give them sugar water above the inner cover to help them draw comb on the foundation. I think things have dried up here for the moment.
     
  19. Daniel Y

    Daniel Y New Member

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    Went back to take a quick peek yesterday about 5 P.M. or so. Seems the eggs are most likely from my queen and where present in the frames when we moved them. I am sure getting tired of my selective blindness to eggs. I need to find a sure fire way to see eggs. Without full sun over my shoulder I can't see them. I know this now because I watched them disappear when the sun went behind a cloud two days ago.

    Anyway all the cells with eggs now appear to have royal jelly in the bottom of them. Good news is we already have foreign brood in the hive. Bad news is we will have to wait for the queen to abscond to capture her.

    20 sheets of foundation are due to be delivered tomorrow and I am in a race to get the frames built for them. We will let the trap set until this weekend since yesterday shows they have plenty of room for now. No sign so far they intend to rear a queen. I will keep a close eye out for that over the next week though.

    Oh one thing I did figure out while placing the box. Since it was close to the ground I was able to mount the base for it with steel concrete stakes. It worked very well and getting everything level is a breeze. I have seen tons of examples of people using 2X4s and what not to brace boxes in place. concrete form stakes come as long as 6 feet and are made to adjust where the form is nailed so it is level. If you feel you need a more sold footing you can always attach a 2X4 foot to the stake where it contacts the ground. Very strong as they are used to hold back hundreds of lbs of concrete when the forms are filled.
     
  20. Daniel Y

    Daniel Y New Member

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    Queen Cells! I need suggestions on how to proceed.

    Went and took a peek again yesterday. replaced the 5 med frames with deep frames with foundation. The original three frames are packed with bees. They are clustering at the bottom of the frames even. The hive had a low roar to it when we opened it and we found at least 4 queen cells in the making. We have at least a very strong 3 frame nuc going here. I figure 8 weeks for the queen to get a decent start and we should have that barely.

    So any suggestions on a game plan form here are appreciated.