Honey Question

Discussion in 'Beekeeping 101' started by Canteringkids, Aug 28, 2017.

  1. Canteringkids

    Canteringkids New Member

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    Forgive me if this is in the wrong section. I am not a beekeeper but I have a honey question. I am developing a line of horse treats and am looking for a source of organic honey that is pastuerized. Is there such a product? I have had no luck with a basic Google search. It is important that the honey be pasteurized, as horses are particularly susceptible to botulism. Any suggestions?
     
  2. roadkillbobb

    roadkillbobb Member

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    you can pasteurize the honey yourself, I believe you just heat it up to a certain temp for an amount of time...whats your location?
     

  3. Canteringkids

    Canteringkids New Member

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    Thank you for your reply! I'm located on the coast of SC, near Charleston. I've seen varied instructions on temperature and time to kill the botulism spores, so will have to do more research on that.
     
  4. roadkillbobb

    roadkillbobb Member

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    you should try and find local honey suppliers and see if they have the ability to pasteurize the honey and if you would be considered a commercial account depending on the amount you need...
     
  5. SuiGeneris

    SuiGeneris Member

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    Pasteurised honey is still considered a possible risk for botulism by the WHO and other health agencies (example). The reason for this is that pasteurisation cannot kill botulism spores, which are resistant to temperatures above the boiling point of water (pasteurisation will get rid of any vegetative cells). You could try sterilising by pressure-canning the honey, as pressure-canning will kill the spores...but this will dramatically change the honey character - some home brewers (of beer/mead) use this method to produce bochet, a mead traditionally made using burned honey. Irradiation will get rid of botulism spores, but I've never seen irradiated honey and I'm not sure if irradiated products can be considered organic.

    FWIW, conventional pasteurisation does not have a singular procedure and is performed by holding liquids at 60-80C for anywhere from 30 sec to several hours, depending on what's being pasteurised and the level of pasteurisation required. A quick google showed that pasteurisation of honey is usually done around 63C, which is very low and completely unable to rid the honey of spores.

    Bryan
     
  6. ccjersey

    ccjersey Member

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    You are misconstruing the danger of horses getting botulism. They eat feeds that have botulism SPORES all the time......as do most animals.

    The disease shows up most often when conditions are right for the spores to have germinated and the vegetative form of the organism to grow......with the production of toxin. The requirements generally would be anaerobic environment with sufficient moisture and moderate temperatures.

    The situation in infant humans is different in that their gut environment may allow the spores in their food to germinate and the bacteria to grow and produce toxin IN THE GUT. This essentially does not happen in domestic animals.
     
  7. SuiGeneris

    SuiGeneris Member

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    I didn't misconstrue anything; in fact, I didn't say a single word about risk. I merely pointed out that pasteurisation is insufficient to achieve the end-point the OP was looking for and discussed alternatives that would provide the desired destruction of the spores.

    Regardless, your understanding of botulism in horses is wrong. Foal botulism remains the most common form of botulism in many areas (there are exceptions), and is caused by the germination and growth of vegetative cells in the foal's gut. As with human children, young foals old cannot prevent the growth of botulism and readily succumb to ingested spores. Foal botulism is so common that it even has a name in common (among farmers, at least) parlance - shaker foals. Even with available vaccination, it remains one of the most common form of infectious disease mortality in perinatal foals. And while you're not supposed to, lots of people feed their foals treats during the risk period - and that would put a treat manufacturer at risk of liability.

    There is also risk to adult horses; adult horses are not* infected directly by botulism; rather, they become intoxicated after consuming feed that contains BTX (same is true for human adults; vegetative botulism cells rarely survive in the adult digestive tract). Horses are far more sensitive to BTX than humans, and as a result have roughly the same lethal dose, despite their much larger mass. Depending on how her product is produced & packaged, used or stored, BTX production could very well occur. Botulism can germinate and produce toxins very quickly, and given the sensitivity of horses to the toxin, you wouldn't need much vegetative time in a production run (or during storage) to hit toxic levels. The usual route of toxin ingestion is improperly stored hay, but there have been occasional recalls of commercial pellitized feed due to the presence of BTX.

    *the exception to this are deep-wound botulism, where botulism grows within a wound deep enough to provide an anoxic environment

    I would agree that the risk is low - but higher than I think you appreciate - and given the liability issues, worth worrying about if you are a commercial producer.

    Bryan

    Full disclosure: I have been paid as a consultant to develop QC and contamination control procedures by a few small (human) food/beverage manufacturers, so I have some obvious biases regarding acceptable risks...
     
  8. ccjersey

    ccjersey Member

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    My reply was not directed at you sir! I was replying to the original post. However, I at least, do appreciate your thorough (if somewhat heated!) response. I was not familiar with the science supporting the occurrence in foals. Maybe the original poster should consider a label warning reflecting this concern
     
  9. roadkillbobb

    roadkillbobb Member

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    horses are very temperamental about what is healthy for them to eat, A friend that cuts and sells hay , must be very careful on what goes into the square bails for horses, many of the molds are deadly to horses but wont bother cattle for beef, im far from knowledgeable on this subject, I just pick up what he tells me or I ask...as far as other ingredients that can hurt horses is beyond me...my friend also has horses and says donkeys are much better to have and keep..not as graceful to see or ride,,but thats another subject..lol
     
  10. roadkillbobb

    roadkillbobb Member

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    im not starting an argument or taking sides, but some of your responses in this thread and others sometimes comes across like you are looking for a fight, may be purely innocent on your part as that may be how you write all the time, sometimes till you get to know how one writes it can be misconstrued... Im pretty sure thats the case here and in the other threads..:)
     
  11. ccjersey

    ccjersey Member

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    Yes....I will try harder. Not being able to post a reply directly underneath the post you are replying to makes it imperative that things are spelled out rather clearly.

    I certainly did not intend to offend or belittle anyone.

    At this point, I think the original poster has gotten a lot of good information though I am sorry that my gaff seems to have been the trigger for its inclusion.
     
  12. roadkillbobb

    roadkillbobb Member

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    EH, no biggie..lol..a short time ago we were able to edit our posts, so after you see it in big letters if you didnt like something you could change it, I dont know what happen to that feature...I figured before it broke out into an all out war with hurt feelings on many sides I would just post my .2 cents...;)
     
  13. ccjersey

    ccjersey Member

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    Most any thing I try to do on here including editing just results in a progress indicator on the upper right corner of my tablet. I post and then open another window to see if it made it but never get anything else back in the original window.
     
  14. roadkillbobb

    roadkillbobb Member

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    there use to be an edit button that was good for like an hour or so, but thats gone now....PITA..lol
     
  15. SuiGeneris

    SuiGeneris Member

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    @ccjersy, no worries. You can always use an "@username" tag to point to whom you are replying to.

    B

    EDIT: just testing to see if I can edit
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2017
  16. Gypsi

    Gypsi Super Moderator Staff Member

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    I too have wanted to edit a post and the software upgrade seems to have eliminated that option. will see if I can get it back. (don't know - will have to ask)

    The trouble is, because they made me a moderator I can edit my post. I have another ID I can log in on to check this out. These 2 lines are my edit.
     
  17. SuiGeneris

    SuiGeneris Member

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    I see an edit button under my posts, and it appears to work (see my last post for an example) - its next to the 'Report' button.
     
  18. Gypsi

    Gypsi Super Moderator Staff Member

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    alright. Now what was the honey question?