need little help in measurement

Discussion in 'Top Bar & other Alternative Hives' started by flyweed, Apr 2, 2013.

  1. flyweed

    flyweed New Member

    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Hey all..I am into the build process of my TBH, but just have a question on a missing measurement for the end board. I have the length of the top, but NO measurement at the bottom..just a degree marking of 67.5 to create the correct cut angle.

    Was hoping someone could help me decipher the angle, to give me an accurate measurement for the bottom length of the end board

    Here is a photo of what I am building.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Papakeith

    Papakeith New Member

    Messages:
    509
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I started to do the math (it really hurt) and then realized that you don't really need the bottom length. As long as you cut the right angle, well not A right angle but the right angle then the length of the bottom is guaranteed
     

  3. flyweed

    flyweed New Member

    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    papakeith...yeah the math hurts my head too. I tried figuring out the angle...I figured "simple"..so I dug out my trusty speed square for figuring angles on roof trussing, BUT, when I set the pivot point on the 18 inch mark and turn the 67.5 angle mark to the correct position, the cutting line is WAY too steep of an angle to be correct....so was hoping someone could just tell me what the bottom measurement would be, so I can stop trying to figure out the stinkin' angle.
     
  4. blueblood

    blueblood New Member

    Messages:
    2,056
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I tried figuring out the missing base. Fail. I then gave the equation to my whiz bang mathematician 15 year old daughter. Fail but great attempt at over an hour. We tried all sorts of theories..even to the point of making a parallelograms out of the trapezoid and finding reverse angles and areas. So, I remember seeing these plans early on when building TBH's. And realized I went with Biobees plans because of missing dimensions. I still have huge accolades for Biobees very easy, fail proof plans.

    I noticed the screen is approximately 12" wide. I would guess your missing bottom base is 12." I would measure 9-1/2" across to mark the center of the top of the end board. Draw a straight line down. Measure 6" to both sides of the line along the bottom. And, then draw a line from each mark at the bottom to the top edge corner of each side of the end board for your angles.
     
  5. blueblood

    blueblood New Member

    Messages:
    2,056
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    And....this morning, my daughter approached me at the coffee pot as I wiped Mr. Sandman from my eyes and started schooling me on my favorite math, Trigonometry with your conundrum (no sarcasm, it really was my favorite). I knew the equation would bother her. She woke up this morning and started working on the problem this morning. She said she is taking the problem to one of her math teachers today at the High School. Our school uses Project Based Learning models and her current math class is a Engineering based Geometry. She tried using her current knowledge of that class to solve the problem with no avail. So, she came up with 7.4 using the following trig method and here is a picture of her math scratching: Sorry, we are having math fun at your expense, ha!
    mms_picture (39).jpg
     
  6. Papakeith

    Papakeith New Member

    Messages:
    509
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
  7. flyweed

    flyweed New Member

    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Yeah, I just CANNOT figure out that base measurement With that angle of 67.5. I went out last night and bought a digital angle finder, so today when I get in the shop I am going to see if I can get this figured out. BlueBlood...I know the plans call for a 12 inch wide "screen" base, but that includes extending that wire screen out onto the side walls (1.5 + 1.5 = 3 inches)...so Id say the end pieces would have to be 9 inches wide at the base so when you add the side walls you come up with a total of 12 inches wide. Do you think that sounds right??

    Thanks guys for all of your help. Hope we can get this figured out.

    Dan
     
  8. blueblood

    blueblood New Member

    Messages:
    2,056
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    You are welcome. I do think it sounds right. I thought those plans were nuts. Who actually uses angles for building measurements, ha?
     
  9. flyweed

    flyweed New Member

    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    LOL..yeah and to throw even MORE confusion into these measurements..if you look at the top bar construction...each "end" where the comb hangs off of, is suppose to be angled in 22.5 degrees...so with a 22.5 on each end..you get 45 degrees....I can live with that, BUT how would that match up with the side walls on these weird 67.5 degree angles. Just not sure how this works out.
     
  10. Daniel Y

    Daniel Y New Member

    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The problem with apply trig to this problem is that trig woudl solve for the missing side of the triangle. and the corner we know the angel for is not part of that triangle.
    You have to form a triangle that has the missing side and calculate it.s angles first.
    Mention this to your daughter she may understand it. But in short there is an imaginary triangle that has the bottom as ine side. the other two sides cut thorugh teh board and their pint is the center of the top edge. hope that makes since. that is the triangle she needs to calculate the angles for and then she can find the length of the missing side.

    I am short on time or I would try to figure the angles.

    Again each bottom corner makes a point of a triangle third point is at the center of the top of the end board.
     
  11. blueblood

    blueblood New Member

    Messages:
    2,056
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    That makes sense Daniel.

    Fly, if you like the tbh after all this, please give biobees plans a try. I can cut and and assemble one of those in less than 30 minutes now. Easy Peasey Japaneasey!
     
  12. Daniel Y

    Daniel Y New Member

    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Okay after a brisk walk to work I coud nto get this problem out of my head. btu I did realize I am lookoing at it the hard way.
    Now it has been nearly 30 years since I did the trig stuf. so I am a bit rusty on jstu what is Sin, Cos, and Tan. But solve for teh missing triangle. the part that is gettign cut off not for what is left.

    Now this is a triangle we knwo enough about to solve for.

    We know that one point is 22.5 degrees. 90 degrees minus 67.5 leaves 22.5. We also kwo that another point is 90 degrees. bottom left point. Since all three angles of a triangle always equals 180 the remaingin angle must be 67.5 degrees. we also know the length of one side is 11 inches. I beleive but don't take my word for it that you need to solve for a tan on a 90 degree cos of 11 inches.

    We now know all three angles and the length of one side. with a trig table that should be solvable.

    I am coming up with the botom edge of this triangle should be about 4.5 inches. for a combined cut off of 9 inches. so yoru bottom missing dimension is roughishly be 9 inches. that is not exact because the length of the piece cut off is showing as. 4.556349186104046 I just rounded it to 4.5 inches.

    If you simply measure in 4.5 inches from teh coners of a square piece of wood you will be very close to your desired angles.
     
  13. blueblood

    blueblood New Member

    Messages:
    2,056
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I bet that's it Daniel. Fly was guesstimating 9" from the plans. Ha, this math problem bugged us too, that's funny. :lol:
     
  14. flyweed

    flyweed New Member

    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    You guys are correct! I went into my High School math instructor (I work at a high school) and they had a handy dandy "angle finder" simple plastic half circle, laid out from 0 - 180 degrees with marks at every 2 degrees. I put the 90 degree mark on the edge of the board I wanted to cut, and drew a line down the side that corresponded with 67.5 degrees....after I drew the line on each side, I was left with 4.5 inches in from either end...leaving a total of 9 inches at the bottom!!

    WHOOO HOOOOO...got it figured out! Man, that was harder then it should have been I think.

    Thanks for all of your help.
     
  15. Papakeith

    Papakeith New Member

    Messages:
    509
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    It was :D , but it was interesting to wake up brain cells that haven't seen the light of day in about 30 years.

    Me, I would have just marked from the top angle and whatever was left down there was what was left. If it fit, Yay! If it didn't, Booo! and try to figure it out from there. But I seem to be a master at fudging measurements and having it all work out anyway ;p

    Glad you were able to find the number you were looking for
     
  16. flyweed

    flyweed New Member

    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    should be a cakewalk from here on out. Got the long sides and end boards screwed and glued together already, and I have all of my top bars made too...so it's all downhill from here.
     
  17. Frozenoak

    Frozenoak New Member

    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    2013-04-03 18.23.06.jpg

    My math says it's 8.48". I wonder what I did wrong.
     
  18. Daniel Y

    Daniel Y New Member

    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Frozenoak. you are right. I was going from memory after just a quick look at the drawing. You have a little triangle in your drawing with an X and Y side. I will call the third side Z. I was thinking that the Z side was 11 inches not 11.5. This extra half inch would account for the difference you are seeing.
     
  19. Daniel Y

    Daniel Y New Member

    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I cut the parts for 9 med supers last night. I just kept everything at 90 degrees though. made life a lot easier:grin:. Yeah I know I'm a square.
     
  20. Frozenoak

    Frozenoak New Member

    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I made my first hive last week so it's still a little fresh. Granted I was using BioBee's plans mentioned by blueblood so the math wasn't necisary. I have a colony in one of the pillars of my front porch that we will be cutting out soon. A lot of firsts this year for me.

    If everything goes well this year I will probably make another next year. The only change I plan on making will be to design top bars 19" X 1" wide with spacers so that my Mentor can place them somewhat directly into his Langstroths.