OK, which works better with a Trap-out?

Discussion in 'Swarms, Cut outs, and Trap outs' started by pturley, Jul 22, 2011.

  1. pturley

    pturley New Member

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    First post here. Being mid- to late July already, which is a better choice as an attractant in a trap-out hive body?

    I set my first trap out on a bee tree last night (it's a BIG ten year old hive... ....it extends from ground level to 8 feet up an 18" diameter branch!).
    PICS HERE

    I plan on stopping out on Saturday to set bait to prevent them from drifting away.

    I have two options for bait... (longer term implications of both are also in consideration):
    1. Frame of eggs/brood from another local beek: methods as described by Iddee, the only concern is the time of year. Unless I get a ton of bees out of this hive (I very well may) I may a bit late for them to be raising a new queen and have to build out.

    2. Buy a new queen: Queen-Right Colonies near me has queens available. This would be a faster start to get ready for winter, but I would be a bit worried they may kill her if I don’t wait long enough before introducing her. Would they be likely to accept her?

    Sincerely,
    Paul E. Turley
     
  2. G3farms

    G3farms New Member

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    I think I would put in a queen and see what happens, if they do ball her you could always combine the bees with another colony.

    OR

    If you have a weak hive sit it in place of the bait hive to strengthen their numbers.
     

  3. pturley

    pturley New Member

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    The problem is, I don't currently have a hive to draw from. Not even drawn comb. The hive body contains 8 plastic foundation frames, two foundationless and swarm lure.

    I have two choices: get a frame from a fellow beek (in exchange for some of the bees) or a caged queen, or both...

    These will be my first bees, but not my first experience working them (very limited experience).

    Sincerely,
    Paul E. Turley
     
  4. G3farms

    G3farms New Member

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    Oh I see!!

    A frame of brood with eggs (should be a cost of around $15 to $20) and the caged queen (a cost of $15 to $25) put in your bait hive should get them going. If they reject the new queen they still have the eggs to fall back on. I did a trap out earlier this year and used a frame of brood with a queen cell, worked like a charm.

    If you decide to go with both the frame of brood and a caged queen. Put the frame in first and wait a day to introduce your new queen (be sure to pull the cork out of the candy end). This will give them a sense of queenlessness and should be more willing to accept the new queen. Check back in on them in two days to make sure they released the caged queen. When you first put the new caged queen in the hive you can watch the reaction of the bees to the new queen, are they trying to get at her in the cage to ball her or trying to feed her through the screen.
     
  5. Iddee

    Iddee New Member

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    I would put the new queen in with both corks in. Leave her a week, then release her.
     
  6. pturley

    pturley New Member

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    I will do that and post the results.

    Next idea/question: Per the octogenarian neighbor, this bee tree has been colonized for more than 10 years now. I would love to try to catch/keep the queen.

    NEXT PLAN IN THE WORKS: Once the stream of bees exiting the cone slows, I would like to try to build a #8 mesh box around the end of the exit cone, with the face of a nuc open into the box. I'll have a feeder through the top of the nuc cover to keep them going.

    The 100,000 bee question be when to anticipate the queen absconds the hive. I personally think it is foolish to think the queen wouldn't leave once the hive is starting to collapse.

    Has anyone tried this? Successfully or not?

    I am also going to have several nucs with swarm lure (swarm traps) spread out along the property line. I am going to put these up this weekend. If she leaves earlier than expected, I might get lucky. The boxes are just sitting empty anyway.

    Sincerely,
    Paul E. Turley
     
  7. Bsweet

    Bsweet Member

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    I have a trap out in the final phase (rob out) now, I started 6-11 with a frame of eggs/brood/nurse bees and added a caged/bought queen a week later, can't say what would work best but something did. I was happy with the hive preformance that I pulled the eggs/brood from but wanted to get some new genes into some of my hives so I bought a queen from Tx. I'm pretty sure she was accepted as there has been no lapse in brood. If you want to try for the queen , try setting up a couple of swarm traps near by about 4 weeks into the trap out, you may catch her and the last bunch of bees when they leave. Jim
     
  8. pturley

    pturley New Member

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    Warm, wet, overcast day but the queen went in tonight...

    She is a carnolean. Caged with three attendants. The cage didn't have corks, just a plastic tube packed with candy. Denzil St. Clair had a great idea to cover the candy with duct tape for a couple of days. Instead, I used paper masking tape, but poked a small hole in it. This should slow them down a bit. It doesn't look like it will be needed though. I'll be checking their progress in releasing the queen on Monday.

    There was a 2 LB beard beneath the cone, a large number of bees in the 10 frame deep, and only a couple in the 5 frame nuc. Those in the box seemed to be wandering around aimlessly with no clear directions for any two bees. Once I set the queen cage, the entire population of the hive box moved to greet her. They immediately started to feed her, all is well!
    [​IMG]

    Shortly thereafter, bees on the landing board started fanning, leading a steady stream of bees from the beard into the hive.
    [​IMG]

    I set the nuc box on it's side and added two quarts of 1:1 syrup.
    [​IMG]

    Overall, an excellent day. More pics are in the photobucket link above.

    Sincerely,
    Paul E. Turley
     
  9. gunsmith

    gunsmith New Member

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    Paul:
    First, I want to add my welcome to all the others you received. It's good to see another new beekeeper here in the Buckeye state. I live about 60 miles west and a little south of you (Greenwich, OH). Looks like your trapout is doing a great job. You can't go wrong dealing with Denzil and his wife Sheila, I get a lot of my equipment there. Did you go to the LCBA field day at Queenright back in May? You seem to have found the right place for us new beeks, (I'm new this year too) on this forum. Thanks for posting and keep sending new pics as the trapout progresses.
    Rodger
     
  10. pturley

    pturley New Member

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    Unfortunately, the LCBA Field Day was on my anniversary and my wife, despite this supposively being "our hobby" wasn't interested.

    And yes, I've already spent way too much money in Spencer this year!

    Sincerely,
    Paul E. Turley

    I am keeping bees to supply my comb honey addiction!
     
  11. gunsmith

    gunsmith New Member

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    :goodpost: Me too
     
  12. pturley

    pturley New Member

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    I stopped by the trap-out to check on the bees progress and refill my feeders with my oldest son last night. He is 13 so I had to pry him away from a videogame to come with me.

    I have approximately 7 frames solid with bees. They are actively drawing out the rite-cell foundation, up to 1/4" deep within 6" or so of the queen, down approximately 1/8" at the ends of these same frames.
    They have chewed through the masking tape on the bottom of the queen cage and are just starting on the candy plug. They should have her out in a day or two. It couldn't be going more smoothy.

    I added a 1.5 gallon feeder of heavier syrup as well (around 1.5:1 mix). This should get them through to the weekend and beyond. I am hoping for 8 drawn frames by then so I can add another deep (w/wax foundation).

    As with many things in life, the quick answer to my the thread title above should've been; "Try it and find out..." I can now say with 100% certainty, using a caged queen in a trap-out bait hive works very well. This should effectively prevent the ~4 weeks delay in brood rearing needed to raise a new queen in the hive. It would've been good to have a frame of brood as well. But at least with this hive, it doesn't appear to be necessary.

    As for my son. On the way home, he was asking when I will be coming out to check on them again and if I could buy him a beekeeping suit before I do! SUCCESS!

    Sincerely,
    Paul E. Turley
     
  13. G3farms

    G3farms New Member

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    No matter what the cost of the queen or suit you have taken a huge chip out of the grip video games have on kids :thumbsup:

    He may be a beek in the making, at least you have sparked the interest.
     
  14. pturley

    pturley New Member

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    I removed the empty queen cage last night.

    They obviously weren't too happy with her not laying eggs for a couple of days as I found a half-dozen supercedure cells getting drawn out from the first eggs she started laying. I started to remove them from one of the frames, but then realizing just how rusty I am a handling bees and how tenuious of position I was in when the step ladder shifted a bit and I crushed at least a dozen or so bees between the side of the frame and the box! (@$##%&, you #%*&@$$!!!!).
    I sincerely hope my $21 queen wasn't among them! I think I'll leave them alone for now and only open the top cover to check their progress drawing out the frames.

    There are a lot of bees in the box now. Compaired to Monday, they haven't made much more progress drawing out the frames (patience, my son... patience!)
    [​IMG]

    Activity at the cone seemed a bit slow with only one or two bees per minute exiting. The weather was overcast again... (it was sunny when I left work) ...that and it was nearly 8pm. I came up with a simple trick to draw out a lot of bees all at once though. I dabbed a stingey little bit of syrup on the mesh about 1/3 up the cone. It was just barely enought to bridge one square of the 1/8" mesh.
    In short order, a bee found it and was allowed drink it, then carry it back into the hive. Within minutes, bees were pouring out of the end of the cone and continued to do so for nearly an hour!

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    It would be cool if you could rig up the hour hand on a clock and a small paint brush to add a tiny drop twice a day. You might be able to speed up the trap-out process this way. On the other hand, it might just give the queen the impression that resouces are still coming in and keep her laying longer. Just a thought.
     
  15. pturley

    pturley New Member

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    One bit of bad news for the rob-out portion of this process. When I arrived, I found 3 or 4 SHB scurrying around the tree entrance. I swashed as many as I could. I also managed to kill an adult greater wax moth that was hanging around on the tree as well.

    Hopefully I'll still have time for them to rob out the tree yet this year... ...they'll need these resources this winter.
     
  16. Iddee

    Iddee New Member

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    Never remove supercedure cells. If they don't like her, they will dispose of her. If you remove the cells, you will end up queenless.

    The mass exodus may have been the queen leaving. If there are no bees exiting the cone on your next check, it may be over and done with. The small hive beetles may have caused her to leave early.
     
  17. pturley

    pturley New Member

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    Do you think that could be possible so soon? It's only been 6 days since I set the trap-out.

    This appeared to be more in response to my baiting them out with syrup, but it would be great if I could crack the hive open already and let the pillaging begin! I'll be stopping by again this weekend.

    What about the idea of covering the mesh around the cone with a finer screen, rolled back on itself at the cone? The idea being to try to limit the number of SHB that can enter the weakening hive. With the cone in place, the wax moth certainly couldn't find a way in.
     
  18. Iddee

    Iddee New Member

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    Depending on the conditions, she could abscond at any time. The check this weekend should give a better idea.

    The moths and beetles are already there. Stopping them from entering now won't help.
     
  19. pturley

    pturley New Member

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    I took my 6 year old (#3 son) with me today to check on the trap-out. (Saturday)

    [​IMG]

    For the most part, he stayed about 30 feet away.
    When I gave him my jacket, I got a bee stuck in my hair and took my first sting in 25 years... ... right on the top of my head. Followed two seconds later by my second on my right shoulder blade! Thankfully, it was much less painful than I remember and other than a bit of localized swelling, there was very little reaction. A bit of smoke prevented my third and fourth!!!!

    There were very few bees in the cone today. No additional bees when baiting with syrup. I think this trap-out might be done already: Check the description in the following article!

    http://morningjournal.com/articles/2011 ... 341295.txt

    This is only 10 miles from the location of my bee tree and there were very few bees in the cone today. Only 6-12 trying to get back in. I don't think the rush of bees on Wednesday was it, but the queen clearly "may have left the building"...

    I'll be checking again Sunday morning. Luckly, (I can't believe my luck on this one) I picked up a Ridgid "See Snake" Fiber optic camera at a garage sale for $15 earlier today! Time to drill some holes and take a look at the remaining hive in the tree.

    The hive box is doing great. 8 of 10 frames are loaded with bees. Hopefully, it's not over yet...
    Yes, my 6 year old is not a bad photographer!!!
    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     
  20. gunsmith

    gunsmith New Member

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    Paul:
    Great pics.
    I had my oldest granddaughter (10) out with me. I got the child sized veil and gloves from Queenright, and bought the smallest size Tyvek coveralls at Home Depot. Roll, and duct-tape the sleeves and legs, and you have a child sized bee suit. Emily gets a big kick out ot the fact that she's dressed just like Papaw,(I use a full suit). One caution, however. The Tyvek doesn't breathe, and your child can get overheated. I haven't found this to be much of a problem, though, as her attention span is less than her capacity for sweating. Just a thought.
    Rodger