Plastic foundation (Jack & Iddee ignore)

Discussion in 'General Beekeeping' started by PerryBee, Jun 30, 2013.

  1. PerryBee

    PerryBee New Member

    Messages:
    5,829
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I have pretty much always used wooden frames with wax coated plastic foundation. The brand of foundation we usually get up here is a product called Permadent. It has the bottom corners cut off (for communication passageways I assume).
    Well, on my last order the supplier I use for large orders was out, and offered up Pierco wax coated foundation in its place. I knew Pierco made complete plastic frames but was unaware they also sold just foundation. The cost was the same so I bought it. When comparing the two manufacturers products I could not help but notice the difference.
    The Pierco is made of a much thicker plastic, doesn't have the cut off corners at the bottom, but it was fairly dripping with beeswax. Pierco obviously spared no expense coating this foundation, it was on there thick.
    The Permadent has wax coating on it as well but not so you would notice so obviously. You can smell it but almost have to rub it to feel it on there.
    I will be interested to see if the bees take to it any more readily than the Permadent (not that it was ever a problem).
     
  2. G3farms

    G3farms New Member

    Messages:
    5,162
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    do you have plastic bees for that plastic foundation? :lol::lol: Just kidding you a little, I'm no fan of plastic myself!
     

  3. brooksbeefarm

    brooksbeefarm New Member

    Messages:
    3,276
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The communication passageways are so they can hear each other cussihg the plastic foundation.:lol: Jack
     
  4. Iddee

    Iddee New Member

    Messages:
    8,996
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    No problem with your request. I've ignored plastic foundation for years.
     
  5. riverrat

    riverrat New Member

    Messages:
    2,683
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    4 out of 5 bees surveyed prefered wax. The 5th was a drone and he didnt care
     
  6. pistolpete

    pistolpete New Member

    Messages:
    469
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    A strong hive with a strong flow will draw out a piece of cardboard. When things are less than optimal, mine prefer wax foundation. I found that they prefer foundationless frames even better, but they draw them out drone cell size. I have a mix of pierco all plastic frames and wood frames with wax foundation. I'm slowly phasing out the wood frames. The bees show a slight preference to the wax foundation, but it's seldom drawn out as nice and straight as the plastic frames.
     
  7. ApisBees

    ApisBees Active Member

    Messages:
    2,060
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    the drone gender is the one that is effected most by plastic. The wax is more acceptibal to damage and the area repaired with drone size cells.
     
  8. riverbee

    riverbee Active Member

    Messages:
    3,048
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    perry, peirco waxed foundation is all i use now. it is thicker, and the coating on the foundation, as you noticed, exceeds other products. as far as no cut off communication holes, just drill a hole in the corners. :grin:
     
  9. efmesch

    efmesch Active Member

    Messages:
    3,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    I have several completely plastic frames with plastic foundation. I recycle them every few years after melting off the wax. It's tough to get them to build on the bare plastic, but when thre's a good flow going, they do it nicely and those frames are the greatest.
     
  10. crazy8days

    crazy8days New Member

    Messages:
    711
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I tried undrawn wax in a super this year. My bees did not touch it. Replaced it with pierco. They went to town drawing it out. Also, my bees don't like a "communication" hole. They all have iPhones and prefer to text.
     
  11. brooksbeefarm

    brooksbeefarm New Member

    Messages:
    3,276
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Tec. may be a turncoat, (or not?) i remember he bought alot of plastic foundation and painting wax on it, but haven't heard him bragging on it or give the thumbs up:thumbsup:. I bought some a few years ago and my bees must of thought it was a hyway, because they just built a center stripe down the middle of most of them.:lol: Jack
     
  12. Minz

    Minz Member

    Messages:
    187
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    I started with pierco plastic foundation. I could only get them to partially draw it so I put the plastic back in for this season (again) and figured a swarm on a flow could draw cardboard. Still no go on the lower box. They seem to have areas that they scrounged the wax from and after that they will not touch it. I am leaving it in there. They will starve and I will throw it away and put wax to them like all of the other hives. Funny thing was that I had a hive right next to it and it drew out all 20 frames and filled them with honey and pollen. Leaving only a small spot for brood. They will not touch the shallow with wax.
     
  13. Slowmodem

    Slowmodem New Member

    Messages:
    1,936
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    All I have are plastic frames (which I assume are similar to plastic foundation). I guess if that's all they have, they make do with it. I usually give a frame a squirt of syrup when I first put it in there. I don't know if it helps, but I figure it can't hurt. I guess it's just a matter of preference.
     
  14. tecumseh

    tecumseh New Member

    Messages:
    6,487
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    a Jack snip..
    i remember he bought alot of plastic foundation and painting wax on it, but haven't heard him bragging on it or give the thumbs up

    tecumseh...
    those worked out just fine Jack. they do have some advantages* over plain wax and wire but at the end of the day I am still old school and prefer wood frames, wire and bees wax foundation. At least for me most of the issues of the thicker plastic based foundation (never can remember the trade name) seems to pretty much resolve itself if you give them a good coating of wax and place them in the hive at the appropriate time of the season.

    *I am guessing like many competitive products ANY CHOICE you make has + and - which you should recognize before you make that step. So that little experiment I did going off the 'old school' reservation was to firmly establish via experience (and not just hunch or what uncle dick said) as to how they might work.
     
  15. kebee

    kebee Active Member

    Messages:
    1,008
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    I use all plastic foundation in my hives simple because I plan only a few hives of bees and no Honey extractor to get honey out, only crust and drain of honey. They are pulling it petty good I think. I do not know what I am going to do with the wax though, maybe sell or give away for right now, maybe change later on in making some candles out of it, have to see. How do bees make wax anyway, I have read on the honey part but not wax, do they make it from pollen or something else.

    kebee
     
  16. PerryBee

    PerryBee New Member

    Messages:
    5,829
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
  17. G3farms

    G3farms New Member

    Messages:
    5,162
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Wax is secreted from the bottom side of their abdomen from between the segments of their body. It is almost clear, tiny flakes of wax. They will produce six to eight of these. If you have a solid bottom board (or screened bottom board that you can slide a board into) there will be many of them laying around on it, about the size of a pin head and oval in shape.
     
  18. Yote Shooter

    Yote Shooter New Member

    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Every frame that I have purchased directly has been from Brushy Mt. and they are their superframes. Wooden frames, full plastic, wax coated foundation. The deep frames have corners that can be snapped off to allow passage between there and the end of the frame. I have never snapped them off and get zero problem with the girls acceptance. It is amazing to see absolute filled frames with capped honey. I have used both deeps and mediums for honey.
    Of course some of the nucs that I have purchased have waxed foundation. Thay have remained as brood frames. Can't say that they are used any different then the completely drawn plastic frames. Tim
     
  19. BoilerJim

    BoilerJim New Member

    Messages:
    166
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Funny thing you brought this topic up. On the way home from vacationing in "Bama" and Georgia last week I stopped by Walter T. Kelley and purchased a few items. Of which was 50 sheets of plastic super foundation. The lady clerk tried to talk me into buying the Pierco plastic sheets at $1.20 each verses the Permadent 95 cents each. My bees have been used to the Permadent knockout corners. I am also cheap. I couldn't see spending an extra quarter a piece. IF I had the same circumstances as Perry had and they were both the same price - I would have gone with the Pierco. I do have Pierco in my brood boxes.
     
  20. tecumseh

    tecumseh New Member

    Messages:
    6,487
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I suspect... don't really know... speculating for sure.... but somewhat based on a very old article I read some time ago by one of those fabled names in bee keeping lore... I suspect snapping out the corners of the permadent is more important in northern climates than here in the south.