Queen raising fee

Discussion in 'General Beekeeping' started by rast, Aug 22, 2009.

  1. rast

    rast New Member

    Messages:
    1,042
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I learned this week that in the Great State of Florida, that if you purposely manipulate the bees to raise queens, you are supposed to be registered as a queen breeder (for another $25). You also have to have samples taken and tested. Even if you raise them only for yourself. This is an attempt to force Fl. beekeepers to follow Mr. Jerry Hays'es Best Management Practices of all queens being of know origin and marked. Presumably to cutail the spread of AHB.
     
  2. Iddee

    Iddee New Member

    Messages:
    8,996
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Jerry is a smart man. It's just that his actions don't seem to reflect that. ;)
     

  3. barry42001

    barry42001 New Member

    Messages:
    1,322
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Not aquainted with Mr. Hays, but was told that is requirement to have your queens clipped and marked to know when she has been replaced and with what was she replaced with, again to curtail AHB spreading across Florida.
    While seems initially like a good idea, unless your constantly monitoring your colony, substancially disrupting them to check on the queens presence, the change could be made without you noticing until you start finding nasty bees. and that can start within 2 brood cycles.
     
  4. BjornBee

    BjornBee New Member

    Messages:
    1,696
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    So what product has been tested, approved, labeled, and proven safe for anyone to mandate to others that a queen needs to be slapped with a spot of paint?

    Not one company of products being used on the market today, including one's being sold by the bee supply companies, have been willing to go on the record that their product has been tested, or approved for such application.

    As of now....NOT ONE product has been tested or approved. Beekeepers are grabbing anything from nail polish to any paint stick available.

    Before anyone of any authority dictates to others that somehting is mandated, proof should be clear as day.

    In this world of going green, movements across the board in cleaning up the environment, and people NOT wanting chemicals in their hives, I think it is appalling such directives are being pushed upon beekeepers.

    People want queens marked and are willing to mandate such efforts, which is not a bad idea in AHB areas, then fine......provide a proven, tested, and made for application, marking pen for this purpose.
     
  5. rast

    rast New Member

    Messages:
    1,042
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    " but was told that is requirement to have your queens clipped and marked"
    It's a requirement only if a beekeeper is attempting to adhear to "Fl.'s Best Bee Management Practices" which is vollentary. A form they attempt to get you to sign. Not a law, not enforcable.
    I know the reasoning behind it and I know that if beekeepers don't take it upon themselves to help slow the spread of AHB. Goverments of one size or another will if it looks good for them in the media.
    It just irks me that want me to pay to raise queens for myself.
     
  6. rast

    rast New Member

    Messages:
    1,042
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    By the way, none of mine are marked or clipped.
     
  7. tecumseh

    tecumseh New Member

    Messages:
    6,487
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    are some here confusing clipping with marking?

    and yes you can tell the disposition of a hive without manipulation (from the front door so to speak) and yes without even taking off the cover.

    ya' reckon' the state of florida's apairy inspection services has enough man power to monitor, much less enforce, any standard on hobby beekeepers in florida?

    I submit to the same test here in texas and my $ out of pocket is about the 20 fold the number rast mentioned directly. you may find (as I certainly did) that the out of pocket is well worth what you learn about your own stock.

    and to those proper citizens on board....
    mr hays is a wise and prudent man. first off I can see the wisdom (given the circumstances) of clipping vs marking. I can reckonize the wisdom to push for replication from know stock (which essentially mean some hobbist will be encouraged to acquire ai/ii stock). the beekeeper is florida would also be wise to support mr hays in his efforts... we beekeeper collectively are a small group and sometime everyone needs to do a little if they desire to get along with their neighbors.

    enoough said....
     
  8. Iddee

    Iddee New Member

    Messages:
    8,996
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    As I stated, Mr. Hayes is a smart man, but he doesn't always act like it.

    In almost consecutive sentences, I heard him state.......

    1. All hives he finds feral are destroyed, even the ones with 60 to 80 thousand workers, just in case they are AHB.

    2. AHB swarm often, and seldom, if ever, get to a large population in a hive.

    When I called him on it, he cut me off with a curt answer and went on to another subject.
    I lost a bit of respect for him at that moment.
     
  9. tecumseh

    tecumseh New Member

    Messages:
    6,487
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    iddee writes referencing a quote by mr hays:
    2. AHB swarm often, and seldom, if ever, get to a large population in a hive.

    tecumseh:
    let me just suggest to you iddee that hives genetically situated in the middle (half breeds) most certainly do and the gross effect of genetic drift of these 'uncontrolled population' (over time) will ultimately lead to the same conclusion. perhaps you should consider what 'seldom' means in this reconstructed sentence from mr hays?

    perhaps you own evaluation of mr hay not acting as if he was a smart person simply means he is acting on a bit more information or has a bit longer term understanding as to how these kinds of things work themselves out?

    as a public official mr hays should resolve to be a bit more politiclly polite to everyone but quite evidently mr hays has certain hot button topics that can make him appear a bit high handed and unreasoned. I noted in an article written in the journal as a response to a PETA member that appeared to reflect the same tone. I would guess all the PETA haters of the world saw nothing wrong in mr hays response. however folks that tend to read a bit more critically would intantly recognize that mr hays used emotional appeal to simply side step the young ladies questions.

    just my two cents....
     
  10. barry42001

    barry42001 New Member

    Messages:
    1,322
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    As I stated earlier, I am not aquainted with Mr. Hays, but have been told the same thing from other Florida Inspection agencies, that no feral honeybees exist in the state of Florida, I am somewhat inclined to disbelieve that. I was formerly a resident of the Vampire state of New York, and the New York State Game Commission, when told of the presence of cougars in Upstate New York, stated that no mountian lions/ cougars are residing in the state. When confronted with photographic evidence to the contrary, the next responce was the lions had to have west coast origins--does it really matter whether the genetics are from colorado or New York, thier presence indicates they infact exist in the state. I think the same is true in Florida, of course there are feral colonies of non AHB honeybees, how long they stay that way is another matter. I do subscribe to managing colonies to maintain eurpoean traits intact, as I have stated in several posts on this web site, I would rather buy the queen I want rather then to settle for what the bees raise as a queen. There are specific traits I am looking for, and am willing to pay to secure those traits. If I wanted to raise Yellowjackets, I would raise them instead of honeybees. I prefer the milder tempered honeybees, aside from the fact yellowjackets generate nothing but a bad attitude instead of honey.
    And as a matter of record, marking the queen-a color or mark of some sort, used to establish the identiy of a specific queen to a specific colny, for a specific time frame. Clipping-A form of swarm prevention, or queen control, a technique that requires a beekeeper cuts off the ends of both wings on one side or both to prevent the queen from being able to fly,or otherwise depart from the colony.
    Again my convoluted thinking :D
    Barry
     
  11. Iddee

    Iddee New Member

    Messages:
    8,996
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Hey, Tec........

    Looks like we used a different set of words to say the same thing.
    Thanks for the confirmation.
     
  12. tecumseh

    tecumseh New Member

    Messages:
    6,487
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    you are quite welcome iddee although I really am just trying to stay the middle road here. I do think some should consider the difficult position mr hays faces.

    to barry:
    I think if some inspector told me there were no feral hives in florida I would first laugh it their face and secondly ask the question... if this were true and there were in fact no feral, why would people/business who reside in florida advertise bee removal services?

    lastly..
    being on the edge of the african problem here my numbers suggest (my analysis) there is some advantage to a large population of migratory bee about and that if you are on the edge of things (as I am here) this tends to favor the european drones very early in the spring (prior to the migratory folks moving northward). being on the edge of things is also what encouraged me to begin using ai/ii stock exclusively for queen replication.
     
  13. rast

    rast New Member

    Messages:
    1,042
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Well, I started this post and was not expecting it to lead this direction. Educational so far.
    I was just surprised that I was expected to pay to raise my own queens. The dollar amount was really insignicant compared to other bee raising expenses (until you add them all together). I would rather look forward to having them tested.
    Feral hives How long does it take for a hive to be considered feral? Is the swarm I watched leave one of my hives back in April now considered feral? Is the tree hive that is in the swamp across from my property that has been there for 3 years that I know of considered feral? In Fl., I think so, even though I know the origin of both. Both should be killed because they aren't in white boxes branded with the owners ID number?
    Bee removal. I would gladly take someones money to remove the swarm from my hive if it went to someones house.
    Queens and marking. Heck, the only time I can find them is when they are still in that JZB cage :oops: . I can however tell the disposition of the hive. Actually, I have had to requeen a really hot, hot hive. Got rid of the obvious drone cells at the same time.
    Which brings me to the commercial's. I think the AHB drones are a bigger threat than the queens. Their mating with the nonAHB queens is a threat. Supposedly they can fly faster than nonAHB drones and can catch her first. Irregardless, a study from Texas says she will use the spermithca? from the AHB first. I also welcome the commercials down here for their drones.
    More tomorrow, Rick
     
  14. rast

    rast New Member

    Messages:
    1,042
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I also have a couple of commercials that are friends. A very large respected queen breeder lives near me That has personaly taught me how to raise my own queens (probably so I won't bother him for them :D ). Iddee can vouch for me that he welcomes my hives as a drone source from an email he has seen.

    Jerry Hays. I respect his knowledge, what he has done and is doing for beekeeping very much. Would not replace him. Now for the "however".
    He really PO'd me in a class of his. I asked a question. He didn't like it or was unprepared to answer it. He made the whole class laugh at my question in a ridiculing manner. In another class of his I was in, a S. Fl. beekeeper I know tried to disscuss with him a point he was trying to make and he just told him "I can see you and I are going to argue, next question". There is more, but I cannot put it print for fear of potential harm of an individual.
    Whats left? Ask me.