Stop the infiltration!

Discussion in 'General Beekeeping' started by BjornBee, May 1, 2010.

  1. BjornBee

    BjornBee New Member

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    Just as seen with other areas of our lives, a slow gradual shift over time often times goes unnoticed.

    I know many bee associations work closely with 4-H organizations. I think my state sends yearly money for one cause or another for 4-H programs. And many beekeepers are also farmers with kids in 4H.

    So what is this all about?

    The national 4-H headquarters in Washington has decide to allow PETA to present workshops at the 4-H national conference. PETA flies in the face of every farmer with animals, every beekeeper, and anyone who eats meat.

    PETA's own written agenda is to stop all animal farming and agriculture. They have also denigrated beekeepers. And would rather see animals put down then continue with what they think is "slavery" by humans who love cats or dogs. If they had their way, we would all have to give up our bees.

    4-H WAS an organization that I GAVE too. No more! To allow the crap they spew to be cast upon our youth is appalling.

    Whoever allowed the door to crack and decided to allow an anti-farming and anti-beekeeping organization such as PETA to have a place at the table so they can carry on their agenda, should be quickly taken out behind the woodshed.
     
  2. rast

    rast New Member

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    I'll inform the local HS 4H president (and his mom) about this tomorrow morning. I'll bet they don't even know.
     

  3. G3farms

    G3farms New Member

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    Where did you find info on this at???

    Our extension agent sent out something a while back about peta, but don't recall what it was.

    G3
     
  4. BjornBee

    BjornBee New Member

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    I actually read about it in a paper called Lancaster Farming. (You need to be a subscriber) Then looked into it further after a conversation with a 4-H person.

    You can search "4-H PETA" and half are stories of PETA ripping on 4-H for being cruel, etc. But there are one's like this one also....

    http://brownfieldagnews.com/2010/04/05/ ... sentation/

    Truly amazing!
     
  5. tecumseh

    tecumseh New Member

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    humm..... are you suggesting your ideas once fully expressed cannot compete in the same space as peta?
     
  6. BjornBee

    BjornBee New Member

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    No, I'm saying my dollars are spent on causes and programs I agree with. Why would I support an organization that allows and supports programs that are in direct conflict with my values and beliefs. I think having PETA or any or it's sister associations sitting at the very table of an association that has been attacked repeatedly, and one that is trying to sustain agriculture and farming in the U.S., is far from any liberal bleeding heart "Can't we just all get along" mentality that some may apply.

    Competing in the same space is far from allowing them to have a "platform", and far from tacit approval by allowing them to spew their crap.

    I did not suggest shutting down PETA. I suggested my support will cease for an organization that supposedly exists to promote, maintain, and bring young people into agriculture....and yet allows programs from other organizations that tears and denigrates that very same message. That is a choice every consumer has with every dollar they spend on products, services, or programs. Conscience decisions of who you support by your spending habits, I am sure is weaved into the fabric of your life also.
     
  7. Bens-Bees

    Bens-Bees New Member

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    While I agree that PETA has no business coming within 250 feet of a minor, I'm not sure I share your outrage over HSUS presenting at a 4-H conference. Farming, (specifically animal farming) is about animal husbandry and husbandry and animal welfare are both all about keeping the animals healthy. I mean, just think about how much time we spend here trying to learn everything we can about keeping our bees as healthy as possible. So I don't think HSUS would be in opposition to what we do... now PETA on the other hand... well, I don't think I can say what I think about PETA on here without my post being deleted by the moderators.
     
  8. BjornBee

    BjornBee New Member

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    Keeping animals healthy.....yeah, you got that. :roll:

    Here is a few bits of what they are promoting right off the HSUS website....

    http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/eating/

    +++Reduce our animal consumption.
    +++Refine our diet by switching to higher welfare animal products (e.g., cage-free).
    +++Replace animal products with readily available vegetarian options.

    You can slice and dice, rationalize, and side step all you want. HSUS has the same goals, agenda, and tactics as PETA. They are striving one step at a time, to stop all meat consumption, crap on what they suggest is animal cruelity of farming, beekeeping, etc. If they had their way, all animal farming, or what they call everything..."factory farming" would come to an end. So would beekeeping, and so on.

    So lets not fools ourselves, the humane society is not about just rescueing cats and dogs. It's about an agenda of stopping meat consumption, farming as we know it, and many other points, well beyond any idea of them just caring about how pets are treated. It is not the same humane society that you may of been familiar with years ago.
     
  9. tecumseh

    tecumseh New Member

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    All I am trying to suggest Bjorn is excluding folks that you don't like pretty much mean eventually you are a party of ONE. Most of the time if people ideas are ill considered why not let such ideas be fully aired out in the market place of public opinion. By doing so... if a persons ideas are wacky everyone knows they are wacky and that the end of that.

    Of course some folks prefer a monologue with no dissent... or at least the expression of dissent. Such folks by hiding ideas or things away in some closet make them seem interesting to almost anyone of a curious nature.

    now it seems you have confused PETA with the Humane Society of America??? <more evidence of why some folks would prefer a monologue???
     
  10. BjornBee

    BjornBee New Member

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    Tec,
    Of course I expected for the second time, the whole "one party" and "excluding" those you don't like stuff. And yes, it is exactly what I mean. I stating for myself, I do not support those organizations that are at odds to what I am supporting, believe in, and want to promote. Since when is that a bad thing? I expect all people to choose who they support, who they give money, and to which products they buy, based on many things. This whole idea that every organization or business must offer every side at the table, is a bit senseless. That is a far cry from sayng they should be abolished or not allowed to exist.

    I am not confusing PETA and HSUS in any manner. They have the same agenda, have many members and organizers being the same folks, and are doing the same thing. I originally got the story from a headline about PETA, and then searched "PETA 4-H" and the above story listed. Yes, I understand your willingness to nitpick the details. But perhaps many others actually in the agriculture business and aware of such happenings, see no difference between HSUS and PETA.

    An organization is formed to bring together like-minded individuals, and to accomplish certain goals, outlined in the articles of incorporation and bylaws. Not to provide a platform so ANY group can spout their message. The whole premise of any nonprofit, association, etc., is to work towards promoting one thing or another. When you join, or support such an organization, your expecting certain things. And thinking they should allow a seat at the table of the very table that exists to promote an industry, a group that would like to dismantle it, is not only poor judgement to the membership and supporters, but most likely are in conflict to the bylaws.

    Now if you excuse me, even though folks like you think NAMBLA should be giving a talk to the local boyscouts in the interest of allowing all sides to exist, it will not happen as long as I am able to fight it.... ;)
     
  11. Iddee

    Iddee New Member

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    >>>>Most of the time if people ideas are ill considered why not let such ideas be fully aired out in the market place of public opinion.<<<<

    Because of the very true aphorism that "If you tell a lie to enough people enough times, they will begin to believe it".

    Just ask Adolph Hitler.

    As BJ said, HSUS is an organization a group founded when they saw the cash PETA was bringing in, in order to fill their own pockets, using the very same platform.
     
  12. tecumseh

    tecumseh New Member

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    well Iddee that fundamental idea of propaganda seems to work quite well for Fox News with little fanfare from the folks (whining the loudest) here who also cannot seem to discriminate PETA from the The Humane Society. or the fact that having some table at a 4-H (<another failed government program) event in some way means that one organization is in full agreement with everyone else attending such an event.

    of course the 'reliability' of the source (nor it's agenda) has not even been considered here.

    Being on the same platform (attending the same event) does not mean folks have the same agenda. At one time people in this country thought 'free association' was a right... evidently some folks have no problem with tossing 'other folks' rights out the window with little thought or consideration.

    as evidence of where this kind of nonsense might go... see above post that STATES that since I have decided to disagree with Mr Bjorn (evidently of the 'you are either with us or against us' crowd) I am now in full support of Nambla (whatever that is... although I likely could make a good guess). evidently folks that PUSH such an reactionary (which does seem to be the appropriate political tag in this circumstance) agenda should fully consider where such dangerous nonsense will lead. such folk never see themselves as being tossed from the tent... so the exclusion is at least perceived as being totally in one direction. not that the 'real world' would work out that way if they got what they wanted.

    perhaps some folks would have done well to listen to one great republican president who said... 'you can fool some of the people some of the time and part of the people part of the time, but not all the people all the time".
     
  13. BjornBee

    BjornBee New Member

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    So tell me tec,
    which of the following is nonsense....

    1) The church one attends, suddenly decides to allow the local chapter of the "Satan's Cult" to give a talk on their teachings to the Tuesday night youth group. And think so highly of the group that they may consider making it an annual event.

    2) NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association) wants to attend a weekend retreat and give counseling to young boys at the boy scout summer rodeo.

    3) HSUS, want to attend a 4-H conference and spread their message of a veganism, and the cruelty that all farming inflicts on animals.

    You may suggest it is jumping out the window, or even suggest that "free association" may be claimed as some justification. But I would think most people would be looking for a new church, may rethink that weekend getaway for their son, and some may even consider not supporting an organization that allows attendees of the very group that is calling for the elimination of their lifestyle and family life.

    Now, lets assume to be correct that each group is peaceful, has a right to have their message heard. Do each have a right to say what they want? Yes. But I also have a right to select, support or not support, and choose, those programs, associations, and events that seem at odds with me.

    I am not trying to silence those groups above. But I will be vocal and alter my support based on which is allowed a platform of the groups I participate, and which has access to my children.

    As I read it, in your world, you would rationalize and justify that each of three scenarios above should be allowed. Sorry tec, I do not feel the same way. And each of the above scenarios has been tried as stated above. Because of the church's nonprofit status as well as the boy scouts, some feel that it should make it "equal time" for those other groups. You call it nonsense that they do not have the right or that I am opposed. I call it nonsense to justify that they should be allowed.

    If I was a beekeeper on this forum, and had children in 4-H, I'd be making some phone calls letting my voice be heard.
     
  14. Iddee

    Iddee New Member

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    Tec, I like your way of thinking. Could you possibly use your influence to help me get the local KKK group to be allowed time at the next meeting of the NAACP, so they can promote their feelings in this free and enlightened society?
     
  15. tecumseh

    tecumseh New Member

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    Well Iddee you seem to be confused in regards to a few detail (facts as they are).

    First you interchange PETA and the HSUS as if they were one entity (did you learn that little trick from Fox News?)

    Then you seem to suggest that the HSUS has some kind of vegan pushing agenda. Let me just recopy Bjorn own snip which at least highly suggest this 'detail' is inaccurate.

    snip...
    +++Reduce our animal consumption.
    +++Refine our diet by switching to higher welfare animal products (e.g., cage-free).
    +++Replace animal products with readily available vegetarian options.

    Now to get to your 3 item list of hypotheticals.

    1) if you attend a church that believes in heaven and hell then you are in some form or manner making praise to Satan since 'he' is also one of God's greatest creations.

    2) As far as I know having sex with minors in most states is illegal. talk is talk, but action in this regards will get you tossed in the pokey in most states.

    3) AS far as I can tell the HSUS is about limiting needless suffering of animals. As the above snipped item suggest they are not really about not eating meat nor do they seem to have some hidden vegan agenda.

    and now the diff...
    quite evidently some folks view the above hypothetical and cannot discriminate the difference. the first two are private associations and they can pretty much do as they wish in what they do and who they invite to attend any function... they can also refuse to seat or close the door on anyone they please. the third (4H) is a government sponsored entity operated in most places by the Agricultural Extension Service. being a government entity they have a very limited right to limit the participation in any publicly held event.

    of course if any private association of persons takes public money their right to limit participation by others is also constrained.

    as a response to #14 and Iddee concept of ha, ha. neither the kkk nor naacp is a government sponsored organization and therefore they can invite or not invite who ever they wish. as the real world works in these days and time a KKK meeting is much more likely to be attended by a lot more NAACP members than Klan members.

    ok folks relax.. although Iddee and I may somewhat disagree on these kinds of issues at the end of the day we will likely shake hands, give each other a big manly hug and agree to disagree.
     
  16. BjornBee

    BjornBee New Member

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    Tec,
    The snip you suggest is inaccurate is DIRECTLY off the HSUS website of the agenda they are pushing. I even gave the link. It is the same as PETA. Are you actually reading anything being posted in conflict of your own opinion? ;)

    I'll worry about the rest of YOUR inaccurancies after we somehow may get past a simple FACT that I provided the information and did YOUR homework and research, after you tried to deny it's existance or reality.

    Come on tec, it's right on their website. HSUS is pushing an agenda well beyond the old "We save cats and dogs by providing shelters". They are active in denigrating farming of animals, meat consumption, and have the same message in many ways as PETA. Can we for the third time get over your willingness to nitpick the differences or use of HSUS and PETA in the same senetence or point to be made?
     
  17. tecumseh

    tecumseh New Member

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    Might I suggest Bjorn you hone your reading skills just a bit.

    If you will read what I have written (and not read in what you think I am saying or what you profile as my thinking) I have simply pointed out the extremely odd connection you seem to be making. It was you that used PETA and the HSUS as ABSOLUTELY identical entities. Your own snip of HSUS stated preference (I never suggest or stated that this snip was inaccurate) seems to suggest their ends are not the same. Yet you still seem to think (feel) they are one and the same entity?

    once again any entity that runs on government money (your, mine and everyone else's tax dollar) are somewhat to highly constrained in who they can exclude from any event. of course they could shove this or that group from their event but then some well meaning shark would be absolutely correct in suing them individually and as a group.
     
  18. BjornBee

    BjornBee New Member

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    The danger, is having the group connected or run at all, in part or fully by university or government levels, while also operating on both government AND public charity.

    The 4-H national council, and the higher levels may be fully funded by government money. I am not clear on that. But the vast majority of local chapters are funded in part, and operate off the goodwill of the local farming communities, and even bee associations.

    Now, if you want to nitpick, this conversation was on the merit of my vocal displeasure of the agenda (and lets not fool ourselves, this is going down the path of what could be called an agenda) For the government (4-H) to imply that this is a pro-farming organization, while for the first time, allowing HSUS to have a seat at the table, when they have stated over and over again, and imply on their own website that they are against farming on many levels, is appalling. I spoke my mind. It was you who had a problem with that. My comments suggested my stoppage of further funding, and you seemed to have a problem with that point alone.

    I never called to 4-H to stop anything. I pointed out that they operate on the funds and goodwill of the farming community and even the beekeeping industry. And that anyone should consider their willingness to support a "government" run organization, (as you call it) while they have shifted two steps to the left. This is the MO for many things over time. Infiltrate, get certain people on the board, and slowly change the agenda, the mission, and the message to a leftist social angle. Unto itself, I have no problem with any group doing what they want. But when 4-H is closely connected with schools, university and extension programs, and is in part controlled by government funds and influence, then lets call it what it is. A vehicle to send forth a message of what they want based on the leadership and those calling the shots.

    If this was for you and me tec, I don't think I would be typing this out. But 4-H is about youth and many times very influential minds. I'm just calling what it is, ....something that parents, farmers, beekeepers, and other people should be aware of. 4-H is on the edge of crossing into agenda driven politics, where "green" is a control mechanism, and many programs are changed for long term social agendas. And the angle that "let everyone sit at the table" or be sued, may apply. That is why a youth organization controlled by government, perhaps is not a good idea as one thinks.

    I'm not alone. Many local 4-H chapters are repositioning themselves away from the message that the national 4-H council is sending. It is not a message many farmers support, and one I also do not.

    I also have explained in searching for the details, that even the google searches for HSUS popped up PETA also. I used them interchangeable and typed PETA instead of HSUS. My bad. I thought I explained this already. I have said they have the same agenda, and HSUS is much more than what most actually think. HSUS is closely connected if not the same, as PETA on the message that farming is bad, meat consumption should stop, while denigrating farming. I can not believe that this conversation can not get over now for the fourth time, the fact I popped in PETA for HSUS, or vice versus. PETA....HSUS....all the same in the details of the pudding. Sorry you got hung up such details.

    Each person needs to be informed. Each person can make their own decision of the groups they support. And I'll say again, I will not support an organization that attacks the very industry I support and love. Parents need to know exactly what is going on in 4-H, and I bet most would be shocked or non-supportive of such matters. If 4-H is mandated by the connection they have with the government, in my opinion they need to get off the government payroll, or realize that they will lose support of the very community they cater too.

    Another example of why government should not even be involved with such things....
     
  19. Iddee

    Iddee New Member

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    Well, we have boiled it down to the idea of what each of us think is the likeness/difference with peta and hsus. Bjorn and I think they are twins, where tec thinks they are unrelated. Tec has seen too much or their right hand and we have seen too much of their left hand. Let's leave it at that, before the thread gets heated. We could all post our opinions in a stronger and stronger manner, but it would accomplish nothing good, so let's agree to disagree and start a new subject.

    Yes, tec and I will shake hands, return to our corners, and come out fighting again on the next bleeding heart subject. :dontknow: :D
     
  20. tecumseh

    tecumseh New Member

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    very nicely said Iddee.

    Bjorn wrtes:
    I spoke my mind. It was you who had a problem with that. My comments suggested my stoppage of further funding, and you seemed to have a problem with that point alone.

    tecumsh:
    not really Bjorn.

    I was simply grasping for what the connection might be between Peta and the Humane Society. I can kind of understand the Humane Society role in most 4-H type programs, but not Peta. where ever you might wish to spend your own funds is ENTIRELY your business.

    as I have previously stated... in almost all cases it is better for all sides to air out their thinking rather than to sweep things under the rug. if a subject really matters then keeping silent while other paint a not so absolutely correct/full picture is inexcusable and the dialogue enlightens everyone.